Talk:ImproveNeo

Hi Jacob,

I am the lead devleoper of ImproveNeo. If you have any questions regarding the validity of my claims, visit our forum. (I won't link to it. Google it.)

If you register, I am willing to PM you my email and we can discuss things further there. Littlemac

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"ImproveNeo, the greasemonkey script, is a script that, among other things, deletes ads, recommends stocks, and facilitates easier look-up of shop wiz prices. It also makes browsing the site easier in general."

Using an outside script to influence your playing of the Neopets site is against the Neopets.com T&C. In particular, inflating stock prices by directing groups of users into buying specific tickers is breaking a particularly golden rule in the Neopets.com T&C.

Whether or not your facility is 'valid' or not is neither here nor there. It is completely against the Neopets.com T&C as much as autobuyers and programmes interfering with the Flash games. In the new Neopets.com T&C, such breaches can cause a $5,000 (USD) fine to be issued.

--Macbeth 17:58, 15 Apr 2006 (CDT)

I was thinking the same thing myself. I can see the value of having this in the NeoDex, in that someone tried to use coding to undermine Neopets coding. Your program seems to be grey area, and i will have to see what will come of it in the next few weeks, and what the official word is from Neopets is on this. :(

i do have to say though...it's quite the accomplishment to make something like this.--Jacob 18:59, 15 Apr 2006 (CDT)

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"Using an outside script to influence your playing of the Neopets site is against the Neopets.com T&C. In particular, inflating stock prices by directing groups of users into buying specific tickers is breaking a particularly golden rule in the Neopets.com T&C. "

While true, this is highly irrelevant. To be more specific, the script tells you ALL stocks at 15. It doesn't attempt to influence the group by recommending one stock. Even if it did, stock prices do not correlate with people buying them.

"Whether or not your facility is 'valid' or not is neither here nor there. It is completely against the Neopets.com T&C as much as autobuyers and programmes interfering with the Flash games. In the new Neopets.com T&C, such breaches can cause a $5,000 (USD) fine to be issued. "

It is also against the T&C to copy/paste. While I do not doubt ImproveNeo goes against the T&C, why can't it be listed here?

"I was thinking the same thing myself. I can see the value of having this in the NeoDex, in that someone tried to use coding to undermine Neopets coding. Your program seems to be grey area, and i will have to see what will come of it in the next few weeks, and what the official word is from Neopets is on this. :("

The "Coding" doesn't attempt to "undermine" anything. It is not cheating for you. If anything, it is building on top of the Neopets code. As far as the official word, please don't email the TNT. If you don't want to put it here, fine, but that may get us into alot of trouble.

BTW, if you are wondering, the script is basically un-detectable by the TNT. Littlemac 23:48, 15 Apr 2006 (CDT)

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You say what you are doing is legit, but at the same time ask us not to mention it to Neopets...okay. Little odd, seeing as i'm sure Neopets would be looking at this article. :o Either case, you will get your article on the NeoDex. It's newsworthy what you are doing. Will write it up, with the knowledge that this is still new, and it's fate is still up in the air.--Jacob 11:52, 16 Apr 2006 (CDT)

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Let me clarify. (I apologise if I sound annoyed, but you've really no idea how may times I've explained this.)

Does this project go against Neopets "Rules"? Yes. I've got little doubt about that.

However, IMO there is a very large difference between rules, and what is morally right. Yes, ImproveNeo probably breaks one or two rules. It does not infringe on the intent of those rules. Do you understand? ImproveNeo does not in ANY way cheat for you, automate tasks for you, or in anyway gives you an un-fair advantage over other players. So, while it may go against the rules, it is not a project that is morally wrong.

Hence why I requested you not to contact Neopets. Hope that makes sense.

Littlemac 13:59, 16 Apr 2006 (CDT)

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The PinkPT NeoDex project is perfectly within the T&C of Neopets.com. Neopets.com allows non-profit fansites, and allows images and characters from the Neopets.com site to be used, provided that the disclaimer of the site reads:

"Copyright 2000-2006 Neopets, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Used With Permission"

This project is not against the Neopets T&C. It doesn't so much as brush up against the rules. You, in advertising your script, are not only inviting someone to inform TNT (being as this is a public website), you may also tarnish the respectability of PinkPT.

Using a script to find stocks of a certain price is against the rules, as it is using a machine to play neopets.com for you. Similarly, it will cause people to buy specific stocks as it recomends stocks fulfilling certain propeties over those not fulfilling them, and whether or not number of purchases has an effect on stock price, this has been emphasised many times by TNT that it is against the rules. Having a code that "builds on" neopets.com violates the T&C directly also. From the official neopets.com T&C under Miscellaneous:

You acknowledge and agree that you are not permitted under any circumstances or for any reason to cheat or utilize third-party games or code in order to win at, or gain Neopoints or Items from any Neopets game. You agree not to design, disseminate or use any third party programs designed to change the game play on the site including, but without limitations, programs such as autobuyers, flash game cheats, autofreshers, and snipers.

I emphasise, you are not allowed to use third party programmes designed to change the gameplay of the site. Which is exactly what your programme proposes.

--Macbeth 15:37, 16 Apr 2006 (CDT)

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We must be on really different wavelengths here, Macbeth. I never said that PPT went against the T&C of neopets. I apologise if you thought I did, but I certainly didn't intend to.

You mention that finding stocks of a certain price has the machine play neopets for you. I am strongly against that idea. It is not playing Neopets for you. The script does not buy the stocks for you. It merely shows you stocks that you may have interest in buying. No different than me posting on PPT forums which stock I bought for the day.

Secondly, you accuse me of "Tarnishing the respectability of PPT". How so? This is an encyclopedia of all things neopets is it not? Are we going to choose on what to report? Maybe we shouldn't mention scammers or cookie grabbers? In fact, why don't we extend this to the forums. Here on out, nobody can ever mention scammers or cookie grabbers.

Thirdly, to respond to almost everything else you said. I've already acknowledged that this goes against the T&C. I really don't know who you are trying to convince here. My point, is just because something is legally wrong, doesn't make it morally wrong. Copying and pasting also goes against the T&C, did you know that? My guess is, you will say that TNT is crazy and will continue to do it anyway. Same thing here. Having something be illegal does not make it wrong, in the moral sense. (EXAMPLE: Slavery??) Having something legal, does not make it right in the moral sense. (EXAMPLE: Racial slurs) ImproveNeo, while it goes against the T&C is not wrong, in the moral sense, because it does not give an un-fair advantage to the player. It does not buy items for you, or buy stocks for you. It CANNOT in anyway make money for you. Because of this, I don't feel it is wrong to distribute it.

Littlemac 16:12, 16 Apr 2006 (CDT)

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Flame wars. wh00t. *sets off some fireworks* The article will be written, and edited as the legality of the program is looked over by the community, and Neopets itself (as i'm sure they will want to know). so relax on all fronts. time will say what will happen with all of this.--Jacob 16:29, 16 Apr 2006 (CDT)

I'm not trying to start a flame war, really. Just defending myself.

BTW, Neopets probably already knows. This project is a couple months old. Really though, don't tell them. I've already acnowledged that this would probably be frowned upon by Neopets. No need to alert them to it. I've said this before (Not here) but by downloading it, you should know that you are taking the risk of being frozen.

And you're very right. Only time will tell.

BTW, does this mean I can give my users permission to edit the article itself now? IE: Data on all the seperate versions. History...Etc...

Littlemac 16:36, 16 Apr 2006 (CDT)

I know what you mean about defending yourself. it hurts to see anyone say something bad about what your work hard on. I accept it as a fact of life at this point, and say "Cest la vie". :(

I will write up the article, and yes, you can give "permission", but unnessesary, as it's a wiki. Let me write something up for it first...--Jacob 16:55, 16 Apr 2006 (CDT)

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I never said that PPT went against the T&C of neopets. I apologise if you thought I did, but I certainly didn't intend to.

Indeed? Then I apologise for misinterpreting "Does this project go against Neopets 'Rules'? Yes. I've got little doubt about that". What did you in fact mean by it?

It is not playing Neopets for you. The script does not buy the stocks for you. It merely shows you stocks that you may have interest in buying. No different than me posting on PPT forums which stock I bought for the day.

TNT have stated many times that it has to be you, the account owner, not a programme, piece of sticky tape, friend, or 'cat' playing neopets through your account. To me, a script that makes neopoints for you would be covered under this (and this script would make neopoints for you, in the same way a financial advisor makes money for their company by advising decisions). (And as a minor point, it is my opinion that posting on the PinkPt forums what stocks you have bought recently would conflict with the T&C about not telling other players to buy into tickers you have bought into)

How so? This is an encyclopedia of all things neopets is it not? Are we going to choose on what to report? Maybe we shouldn't mention scammers or cookie grabbers?

Talking about methods which abuse the T&C, from an objective point of view, I consider acceptable. It is where talking objectively because advertisement and instructions that we should be concerned about. I also think that it should be obvious, as you were advertising something you personally think " goes against the T&C", that this would come under the later category.

And the law does not quibble over moral wrongs versus legal wrongs. It may not be morally wrong, to you, to switch off the life support of someone whose quality of life has been restricted so much they ask for you aid to die, and yet this is wrong in the eyes of the law and you will still be a criminal for doing this. You may think abortion is morally wrong, but in countries where it is legal women who abort (and indeed their partners who advise them to, if applicable) are not criminals. Please note, I am NOT inviting discussion of these issues given in example.

However, I do, to some extent, see where you are coming from, but ImproveNeo will remain against the T&C and thus should not be listed here in my eyes until we get some word from TNT that it is allowed/is not allowed. I suggest for the time being we agree to differ.

--Macbeth 16:58, 16 Apr 2006 (CDT)

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In "Does this project go against Neopets 'Rules'? Yes. I've got little doubt about that", I was reffering to ImproveNeo. "This project" = ImproveNeo. Sorry for the confusion.

As far as the rest, I don't really disagree with you on any of that. (Except whether it should be included in the encyclopedia.)

Thanks for the discussion!

Littlemac 17:09, 16 Apr 2006 (CDT)

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Ah, I see. Thank you for clearing that up :). And anytime you want another discussion, just let me know ;).

--Macbeth 17:14, 16 Apr 2006 (CDT)