WW36: Valinor (Dead Thread)

[Siniri]

So what's up with the ring, anyway? Of those with the siggy, Katherine, Ammer, and Miyu were dreamed evil (and 2/3 were confirmed evil through death). The only other person who has the siggy is Pink... but I can't imagine that they'd give you a signature that proclaims your evilness. (Forgive me if I overlooked someone -- I only went through all of the dead thread and then through the last 5 or so pages of the living thread.)

I count at least 4 baddies left (assuming Ammer was rezzed evil). Hopefully the dreamer can get another good result soon. Otherwise, it'll start to get a little like "And Then There Were None."

[DM was on fire!]

I think it's just an advertisement for the game and nothing more.
Then again, I could be wrong.

Oh.

Yes because an innocent would resurrect Ammer.
/sarcasm.

Could've possibly been like the Mafia, when I was rezzed (in WW4 -- wow, that goes back. XD) and brought in as a member of the Pooglini Mafia.
It might be possible that the innocents have a team similar to that.
*fails with LoTR*

[May]

Awww, poor Tommykins dying as Gimli I had a feeling that's who you were!

[Katherine]

I'm neutral, so I guess the ring makes you be drempt evil.

[Pixa]

Those 'weird posts' weren't without reason! BUT KILLED ON MY BIRTHDAY. That deserves instant death.

Tommykins.

[Pardona]

Question for the more experienced WW'ers here (meaning everyone ) : When a person comes back, from the dead or otherwise, how likely is it that their role, or even alignment has changed?
And two other questions I've been wanting to ask:
1/ Why would Mongrel's role be kept hidden even after she died? The only reason I can think of is a post-dead role.
2/ Roletrade? I've heard this mentioned a number of times, but what does it actually entail? Is it really completely switching roles, alignments and everything else with another player? Cause I can hardly see such a thing being allowed.

[Katherine]

Question for the more experienced WW'ers here (meaning everyone ) : When a person comes back, from the dead or otherwise, how likely is it that their role, or even alignment has changed?
And two other questions I've been wanting to ask:
1/ Why would Mongrel's role be kept hidden even after she died? The only reason I can think of is a post-dead role.
2/ Roletrade? I've heard this mentioned a number of times, but what does it actually entail? Is it really completely switching roles, alignments and everything else with another player? Cause I can hardly see such a thing being allowed.

1. Sometimes, roles are just kept hidden like that. If it was a post death role, she wouldn't be that same role the entire game. The role might have been heired off, but that's unlikely at this point.

2. Roletradeing is just what it sounds like. You tell(or lie) your role to the other player. They can usually tell your alignment from the role. Example:

I'm The Queen, and I can chose who to execute every night.

Oh, that's cool. I'm the Fish, and I'm a untrustworthy innocent, basicly.

As for your first question, I think it's about 50/50.

[Pardona]

Thanks. So, besides having to trust another player to be honest about his or her role, you also have to be sure that the other player will actually send you a role back in the first place? Or is it an unspoken rule that not sending anything back is and admission of guilt? And is it possible to accuse another player of not having sent his or her role back during a roletrade, or is the fact that you can roletrade with as many players as you want a safeguard against this?

I realize I'm asking a lot of questions, but I thought it'd be best to get all my answers before the next game.

[Anvil]

I'd like to point out that surviving execution should in no way be considered a sign of evil. It's up to chance. Someone with a 5% shield could survive execution if they were lucky enough. If an innocent has 40% shield, they have a 2/5 chance of surviving execution. So yeah, those odds aren't so bad.

Same with being attacked. I got killed in one hit. It's reasonable to assume that I had a shield. Baddies usually have slightly higher than the innocents as well. So luck has a lot to do with it.

If Miyu's found to be evil, it shouldn't be based on surviving an execution. It should be through a bad fake role, a dream, posting/voting patterns, blah, blah, etc, etc.

[Pixa]

When someone comes back to life, it's generally unlikely that their alignment will change. Evil players will hardly ever become neutral or innocent. Innocents, and to a lesser extent (generally due to their smaller numbers, I guess) can come back as evil players if a team has a 'rezconvert', in such that resurrecting someone makes them join their team. Some players have auto-rezzes, nearly always OMTs, too, where they'll automatically come back after dying.

When roles are kept hidden after a player dies, this could really mean one of two things, in my books. Firstly is that the player has an heir and is much more likely. Often you'll end up executing a baddie, only for everyone to sigh as their role isn't revealed, implying there is now an heir out there. Heirs are very annoying - sometimes they lose their old roles, but sometimes they keep their powers. This can make proving your role an ineffective way of clearing yourself. Secondly, it could be that an auto-rez will trigger. I only really thought of this because it happened the other day in another game I'm playing.

If I were to initiate in role trading with a player, I'd generally ask them for their role and expect them to tell me first - I think this is a pretty fair demand, though I can be a bit of a pushover and be coerced into going first. The way I look at it is that if you ask to role trade, you're probably an innocent, as baddies don't want to go flaunting fake roles as someone may expose a loophole. If their role seems legitimate, I'd reply back with my role. Sometimes I might forget to send a role back if someone asks me to role trade - generally it's a good idea to have a fake role ready, if you're evil, and be ready to reply. Being reluctant to role trade will definitely set alarm bells ringing. A bandwagon may form on you to 'pressure' you, or you might be dreamt (and subsequently shown as evil).

I'm not sure I totally understand the second bit of your last post - but if someone doesn't reply to your role trade, it could either be because your role is flimsy and they wouldn't want to give their role in return, for fear of being killed, or they're evil and haven't coined a fake role. Obviously whichever depends on the circumstances. Things to avoid when creating fake roles - percentage based powers, claiming plain innocent, claiming things like... selfish healer, where it's very hard to prove that your role does that, claiming coroner, claiming tracker. Many of those will set alarm bells ringing, again, and you could find yourself up for execution.

Some people choose not to role trade, and of course that's their choice, but can be their undoing in a way, too, if they're evil, being high priority dream targets if known for their stubbornness (for how else are you going to get information about them?).

At least, that's what I'd say, on those things. XD

[Pardona]

Thanks. That really did help. I guess I still have a lot to learn, but I feel better prepared for my next game now.
Also, if anyone is still interested in what I have to say after my bad call on Ammer: I really do think Miyu is evil. I can understand not wanting to roletrade, but being put up for execution should provide enough incentive to do so. Look at it this way: Miyu can't roletrade if she's evil, and if the innocents decide to dream of her, the evil team gains some respite because the dreamer spends a night dreaming of someone who is going to die anyway.
As the Red Queen said: "Off with her head!"

[Siniri]

Except Miyu was already DREAMT as EVIL -- it's not "just because" she survived execution. I don't know why we should suddenly start distrusting the person claiming to be the dreamer when they've gotten so many right. I really don't understand the logic of not trusting a dream result, especially this late in the game. How exactly are the innocents being duped by the dreamer?

@Miyu: Regan survived so many attempts mostly because the protectors knew she was a target and protected her (I think one of my gambles paid off in her protection, too -- the night she got "lucky"). Regarding the shield thing, no matter how high my shield is, I always seem to fall in the first attack.

@Pardona: When I was roletrading this game, I'd start off telling just a bit of my role. "I'm Merry, but I'm pretty weak." Then I'd wait and see what they said before sharing more of how my role worked. In one case, the person who replied gave a pretty weak role, so I pegged them as a possible evil and didn't share anything more. Of those to whom I revealed more of my powers, they've all proven innocent so far. (Of course, Regan totally fooled me one game when she was a OMT.) In this game, I was much more active in roletrading than in other games, but that was because of the nature of my role. I didn't want to gamble with the protection of the dreamers/trackers/protectors.

[Nikita]

Sadness. :(

Glad I lasted as long as I did though! :)

[Mongrel]

Someone with a 5% shield could survive execution if they were lucky enough.

Actually, no they can't. A 5% shield means execution will kill you because the deduction for surviving execution is more than 5% in virtually every game.

[Siniri]

Ammer, I had an autorez in the HW WW game last week -- and I was the innocent ninja. Aren't auto-rezzes usually reserved for OMT's? As far as I can tell, we have ~2 orange team members (lava?), ~1 pink team member (oliphant?) and the March Hare. Since the Mad Hatter didn't get an auto-rez, I'm assuming the March Hare wouldn't either. (This would imply to me that there might have been a few conversions of former innocents.)

Miyu, I wasn't attacking your playing style, just trying to understand your logic. I suppose it's possible the dreamer's lying about dreaming you, but it's quite risky at this stage in the game -- unless they've been converted. But they were right on Rachel. And one falsified dream result would (well, should) be the end of the line for a dreamer. With the numbers so razor-thin, it'd be stupid to lie and risk killing off an innocent and tip the game balance.