Pink Poogle Toy Forum

If we wind up going into the Kreludor mines, I could definitely see that happening. I'm not getting my hopes up though.

It seems to me there should be two different plot threads: one for people who are solely focused on solving the second puzzle, and one for people working on other steps or speculating about future steps. That would make the threads shorter and more focused, but it's up to the mods.

Thank god, I *finally* finished that plot step.

TOSO, I do like that idea, although it could allow for clutter :/ I don't remember if we had it in place for a plot, or whether that's my brain making things up...

We did that during the Altador Plot when people needed constellation help.

And also the Haunted Woods Plot (I'm not going crazy!)

I think it'd only be useful for big steps like the Decoding - something like the guard step probably wouldn't merit its own thread, IMO.

Mods, opinions?

I think that's a very good idea. Ditto on the people above me.

I'd like it as well. It would be good to have all "theories" in one place so that all the "steps" discussed aren't as jumbled. Posts seem to be getting lost/go unnoticed easily.

Well, to make the page a consensus on the subject, I'd love that as well.

I felt really distracted when looking for guides while doing the coding puzzle and having to ignore the plot discussion. If both were separate, it would have been easier for me to get back into the swing of the theories if they had a separate discussion thread.

I also agree on seprate threads. BTW Woo HOO I'm all up to date, FINALLY. I cranked up NIN on my iPod. To anyone still stuck. HANG IN THERE. Keep plugging away, you'll get it eventually

I agree. I was so close to dropping out so many times in the decoding step, but I decided I'd be kicking myself, and I'd regret it later. I ended up just plowing through, reading guides, and finding a strategy. Once you've got a strategy and know what you're doing, it's not hard any more - just extremely tedious.

Now I'm on the last step of the guards (if the blasted thing would load).

ETA: I have NEVER been so glad to see the "To Be Continued" sign. I managed to do all of the 3-mod codes that I needed today, as well as the guard step

I'm quite glad, as I was internet-less for about 4-5 days, plus I've got a huge uni courseload coming up this week, so I really wanted to be on top of things and not constantly a step behind.

I'm reposting my guide in a more-complete form, since I've made so many edits to it... It is an optimization of TOSO's guide, from here: viewtopic.php?p=775264#p775264 - where I replaced "step 5" with a different way to do the same thing (that requires a lot less writing). It requires a bit more setup work and thinking, but it should cut down the time necessary by about half (more if you're really fast at the optimization step). Since this step of the plot takes hours or days, I hope this'll be worth it.

In other words, this makes things harder, but it's a lot faster if you get good at it. Please don't give up if you find this too hard or not faster, though - a lot of people have used the more-straightforward way with success.

(To be exact, the optimization replaces 5 brute force attempts with one math problem. If you can do the problem faster than the 5 attempts, this'll be faster for you, and a lot less mind-numbing.)

Intro
This guide will be most helpful on the 2-modifier and 3-modifier puzzles. It helps if you have some comfort with modular arithmetic, but I'll show you how to do the things that need it.

The puzzle presents you a key, a target, and three "modifiers" to get from the key to the target. The symbols stand for numbers, and each column is added up, independently (literally, adding!). The symbols wrap around if the numbers are too big. You need to find the modifiers such that the key plus all the modifiers gives you the target.

Key + Modifier 1 + Modifier 2 (+ Modifier 3) = Target mod n
"mod n" means modulo (a quick way of saying "it wraps around after n symbols").

For the curious who know a bit about modular math, currently (February 10), these symbols have these values. These work for all of the levels (1-mod up to 3-mod with O)... If the values change in the future, everyones' reference tables will need to be reconstructed, starting from here. (Also, see note in small print near the end of the post for how to recover the values again.)
X = 1 mod n
V = 2 mod n
C = 3 mod n
8 = 4 mod n
P = 5 mod n (this symbol is also known as mushroom)
Z = 6 mod n (if necessary)
O = 7 mod n (if necessary)
...where n is the number of symbols.
- 2-mod puzzles have 5 different symbols
- 3-mod puzzles (without O) have 6 symbols
- 3-mod puzzles (with O) have 7 symbols

Actual procedure (for each single puzzle):

Before starting brute force:

1. Note the desired symbol in the first position of your Target and the first position of your Key. I strongly suggest using the first symbols. (Some weird behavior has been encountered with the last column. I presume this is to throw off old calculator programs when the values got changed.)

2. Take a look at http://www.neopets.com/~KyootestLenny, and note all of the combinations of modifiers which would produce your desired symbol. This is your list of possible first-symbol modifier combinations.

3. Make a table with each combination of two symbols (XX, XV, XC...) and write down all the modifiers that begin with each of the two symbols.

Also count how many modifiers start with X, V, etc. (You can just look at your own table for this.)

I suggest something like this:


4. Find the symbol-to-number table that you're on, and write it somewhere handy. These change between every tier of puzzles (2-mod, 3-mod without O, and 3-mod with O), so don't accidentally use the wrong one!

These are tables correct as of right now (February 10), but might change if TNT changes the values of the symbols.

2-mod:


3-mod without O:


3-mod with O:


Why do these look like this? Okay, let's take an example:

Starting at some symbol, adding another symbol means this:
"adding Z means stay put (0)"
"adding X means go right one space (+1), or go left five spaces (-5)" (whichever is most convenient)
"adding P means go right five spaces (+5), or go left one space (-1)" (whichever is most convenient)
etc.

Try it: "X + V" means "start on any X, then go right two spaces, or left four spaces". The answer you get should be C.

For the optimization, you'll encounter this sort of thing a lot:
V + X + 8 + ____ = P mod 6

You can find the blank like this:
V: Put your finger at 2
X: Go right one space (now on 3)
8: Go left two spaces (now on 1)
___: How many spaces do I need to go right in order to reach the P? Answer: 4, symbol "8"
...or like this...
V: Put your finger at -4
X: Go right one space (now on -3)
8: Go left two spaces (now on -5)
___: How many spaces do I need to go right in order to reach the P? Answer: 4, symbol "8"

It doesn't matter which moves you choose. You'll want to get fairly quick at this.

Brute-force Loop:

Yes, this brute-force part is still tedious. I'm very sorry.

1. Look at your list of possible first-symbol modifier combinations. Also take out your table, and look at your counts of modifiers beginning with X, C, V... Take the first combination, and circle the symbols for which you have the least modifiers.

For example, you're on 3 modifiers and need X, C, V in the first column. You have tons of modifiers beginning with V. Circle X and C, and leave V for later...

2.
If on 2-modifier: Place down the one modifier beginning with your circled symbol. You'll have to try every modifier that begins with this symbol.
If on 3-modifier: Place down one modifier of the first circled symbol and one of the second. You'll need to try every combination of first two modifiers.

In the example, I would plop down the first modifier that starts with X, and the first one that starts with C.

3. Leave the last modifier blank. Remember what symbol you want at the start of your last modifier - this is the uncircled letter. (In the example, I would remember that I want my last modifier to start with "V".)

4. Here's the optimization: Now we find what your last modifier's *second* symbol should be, based on T and the other two modifiers. You'll want to get fairly fast at this step.

Now look at the second column.

With the third modifier missing on 3-mod, the problem looks something like this:
V + X + C + ____ = X mod 6
To be more general, it looks like: Key[2] + Modifier1[2] + Modifier2[2] + __Modifier3[2]__ = Target[2] mod n

(For 2-mod, there is just one less symbol on the left side.)

I explained how to solve this sort of thing before, copied below for your convenience.



If you'd rather do the 'pure' math:
Convert the second symbol of your target into its number, and do the same for your key. Subtract the key from the target, modulo n. Write this number down, which will be called T below. (T = (Target[symbol 2] - Key[symbol 2]) mod n)

Convert the second symbol of modifier 1 and modifier 2 to numbers, and find:
For 3-mod: Modifier3[2] = T - Modifier1[2] - Modifier2[2] mod n
For 2-mod: Modifier2[2] = T - Modifier1[2] mod n

5. Now you can choose your last modifier based off its first *two* symbols (the uncircled number, and then the one you just calculated). Look up the first two symbols in your table, and find the modifier numbers. Try every modifier listed that starts with both of your desired symbols, in the correct order. (If there aren't any modifiers that fit, you're done with this step.)

6. For 3-mod only: Once you've run out of third modifiers, go back and select a different second modifier with the same second circled letter. Then go to step 3.

7. (for all) Once you run out of second modifiers, go back and select a different first modifier that starts with your first circled letter. (If you're on 3-mod, now select the first Modifier 2 that fits your second circled letter.)
Then go back to step 3.

8. If you run out of combinations of first and second modifiers that start with the two circled letters, cross off that entry on your list of possible first-symbol modifier combinations. Go to the next entry on that list, and go back to step 1.

9. If you're on this step, something is wrong. You must have missed the correct combination.

This should still often narrow your choices down for your last modifier to just one (and often none - you've already ruled them all out). If you can do this math quickly, it should be much much faster than trying all the possibilities based off just the first symbol (five or so each).

(It is indeed possible to match on the last three symbols, instead of just the last two. But with two symbols, you'll already encounter situations where you have no matches - with three symbols, it becomes so rare to match all of them that it's probably faster to just match on two.)

*NOTE if the values change:

I figured these values out by mostly guess-and-check with a reference table on 2-mod, though 1-mod might be easier to start with. The symbols, if you have the correct behind-the-scenes values and not just equivalently-behaving values (see below), retain their (positive, non-zero) values going up from one type of puzzle to the next. So for 2-mod, P === 5 mod 5 (note: NOT 0 mod 5), which becomes P === 5 mod 6 with 3-modifier puzzles (note: NOT 0 mod 6). If these values change, you'll probably need to figure the values out starting with 2-mod or 1-mod, because I found it very hard to discover the values starting cold with 3-mod (before checking on my everything-retains-their-values hunch).

Note that you could accidentally swap some of the symbol values around and not be able to tell until you moved on to the next type of puzzle. For example, you can solve all the 2-modifier puzzles with everything negative by accident (X === (-1 mod 5) === (4 mod 5) instead of (1 mod 5), V === (-2 mod 5) === (3 mod 5) instead of (2 mod 5), and so on.). This is okay, because modular addition and subtraction behave the same regardless. But then your values for each symbol will seem to be wrong when you go to the 3-mods -- so you have to negate (mod n) all your values first.

For example, say the 2-modifier symbols don't seem to retain their values when going to mod-3. Then try making all the 2-modifier values their negative.
For example, if you have X === (4 mod 5), do this:
X === (4 mod 5) === (-1 mod 5), so instead, try X === (1 mod 5). (Do the same for V, C, and "8")

Figuring out these properties was the most time-consuming part of the puzzle for me so far, but I hope other people will benefit.

[edit] Broke some instructions up into methods A and B.
[edit2] Fixed the screwed-up example
[edit3] Removed more math...

Just to make it a little easier for our less mathematically inclined, what AySz88's guide is doing is basically turning every symbol into a number in base (the total number of symbols). So in the 3-mod puzzles with the O, each symbol is a one-digit number in base seven. One symbol represents 0, another represents 1, and so on up to 6. To calculate the result symbol, the values of the other symbols are added up, but "wrap around" once 7 is reached. It's like when a clock hits 60 minutes. For example, if you added 3 and 5, you would normally get 8, but in this puzzle it would become 1. The puzzles without the O wrap around at 6, the 2-mods wrap at 5, and the one-mods wrap at 3.

One correction to the above post: the values, ALL of them, change between "tiers" of puzzles. C was the zero value in the 1-mod puzzles, but it isn't in the others. Beware of this, as completely different charts are needed for each type (but they work for all puzzles in the same tier).

Actually, that is only for positive values (I guess I should have been clearer... ). C is the three value for the 1-mod puzzles. But 1-mod only has three symbols, thus C is equivalent to the zero value for 1-mod. But note that it remains the three value in 2-mod and up, even though it's no longer the zero value.


[edit] Of course, the addition and subtraction tables change, which I guess I should note...

We've been talking about it, and its staying as one thread. Whereas the constellation finding be worked out by other people, this one can't. Likewise, the potion making was there for figuring out how to get to the right substance IIRC, and was a collaborative trial and error - the method for step two has already been worked out for this plot.

If we split it into two threads, all one thread would be is people claiming they don't understand how to do it, people complaining about it and people linking the first two groups of people to different guides.

If people are still talking about Step 2 so frequently in another plot step or two, it might be split away, but already the discussion on the step has fallen drastically as more and more people solve their codes - so for now, it stays together in one thread.

On a completely unrelated note, I forgot to mention earlier that I had to decode all five 3 Mod O codes and tried every possible set of combinations bar one before I got the Garoo message - Frankly, I'm amazed those symbols weren't plaguing my nightmares last night

All this linear algebra makes my poor dyspraxic brain hurt.. heh.

Agreed. I looked at it, thought "Well, if I really tried, I could probably work it out", looked at my accounting textbook which was already causing brain breakage this morning, and went "Screw it, the other way's working for me."

So for those of you who aren't mathematically inclined, or who can do it but really don't want to - don't despair, there is still a way of doing it! I'm sure the maths way is probably quicker, but that implies I understood it