Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:13 pm
I know the difficulties of moderating, since I help out in two other sites. Thanks to the staff here for keeping the place fun.
I had already pointed out my concern in another thread, but I'll post it here also for the sake of keeping such concerns in one place.
My suggestion was that when threads are moved that there should be a ghost left or whatever they are called here, so that the original poster and anyone else interested in the thread would be able to find it, and not wonder if it had been deleted and why.
I received prompt responses to my concern, one of which was an eye-opener to me, on the upper left corner of the index page there are links to new posts and one's own posts, so this is a way for a member to locate their threads and their posts.
I still think that if a thread is moved that a PM would be a good idea.
I had already pointed out my concern in another thread, but I'll post it here also for the sake of keeping such concerns in one place.
My suggestion was that when threads are moved that there should be a ghost left or whatever they are called here, so that the original poster and anyone else interested in the thread would be able to find it, and not wonder if it had been deleted and why.
I received prompt responses to my concern, one of which was an eye-opener to me, on the upper left corner of the index page there are links to new posts and one's own posts, so this is a way for a member to locate their threads and their posts.
I still think that if a thread is moved that a PM would be a good idea.
Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:33 pm
I actually find ghost threads much more confusing than anything else, and also sometimes it makes it seem like it hasn't been dealt with yet (on a cursory glance)
I do think that a PM is a good idea, but I'm not so sure about leaving a copy of the thread, simply because it can get bulky. On another forum, I've had days where I move a good 150 threads in a day, and it would be totally impractical to leave copies of those threads. Obviously this forum is much smaller, but it has the potential to grow and that policy tends to get bulky as more and more threads are misplaced.
I do think that a PM is a good idea, but I'm not so sure about leaving a copy of the thread, simply because it can get bulky. On another forum, I've had days where I move a good 150 threads in a day, and it would be totally impractical to leave copies of those threads. Obviously this forum is much smaller, but it has the potential to grow and that policy tends to get bulky as more and more threads are misplaced.
Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:41 pm
Keakealani wrote:I actually find ghost threads much more confusing than anything else, and also sometimes it makes it seem like it hasn't been dealt with yet (on a cursory glance)
I do think that a PM is a good idea, but I'm not so sure about leaving a copy of the thread, simply because it can get bulky. On another forum, I've had days where I move a good 150 threads in a day, and it would be totally impractical to leave copies of those threads. Obviously this forum is much smaller, but it has the potential to grow and that policy tends to get bulky as more and more threads are misplaced.
Thank you very much. I see now. The sites I help with are smaller. I didn't realize there was the clutter problem. I appreciate the quick reply.
Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:48 pm
Well, I'm not really that experienced with this particular forum, but yes. Definitely it's a good idea for very close, small forums, especially since those members tend to be a bit less active. But this forum is about medium-sized, and it will probably become a problem in the future...
Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:23 pm
theonlysaneone wrote:Matt wrote:My one and only piece of advice on how to make the forum better?
Bring back ChromeFox.
I'll second that. Chrome was awesome.
For the first time since the Eurovision, I'll agree with Matt. And for the first time EVER, I will agree with TOSO.
Thirded!
Seriously, wanna start a campaign? I'll start the protests and riots!
Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:33 pm
Ixist wrote:theonlysaneone wrote:Matt wrote:My one and only piece of advice on how to make the forum better?
Bring back ChromeFox.
I'll second that. Chrome was awesome.
For the first time since the Eurovision, I'll agree with Matt. And for the first time EVER, I will agree with TOSO.
Thirded!
Seriously, wanna start a campaign? I'll start the protests and riots!
Chrome left on her own accord. She'd been moving away from the site for quite awhile, we miss her, but you've got to respect her choice. As much as she's missed, we're what you've got now.
Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:54 am
ahoteinrun wrote:Chrome left on her own accord. She'd been moving away from the site for quite awhile, we miss her, but you've got to respect her choice. As much as she's missed, we're what you've got now.
And, hey, Inrun, just for the record, there's a whole bunch of you staffers (yourself included, my dear) that are pretty cool, at least in my book. And probably a whole lot of other members' books. Don't ever forget it. Just cause you aren't Chrome does not mean you aren't cool, OK?
Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:21 am
Morningstar wrote:
And, hey, Inrun, just for the record, there's a whole bunch of you staffers (yourself included, my dear) that are pretty cool, at least in my book. And probably a whole lot of other members' books. Don't ever forget it. Just cause you aren't Chrome does not mean you aren't cool, OK?
Morningstar, i'm so cool, I make the Columbia Ice Field look hot.
*chuckles* but arrogance aside, thankyou. Staff like to hear that sort of thing. It makes us feel giddy and special. And sometimes as staff, we don't get to feel giddy and special.
Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:33 am
Yeah, I wish Chromefox would come back here. Chrome Roxored. And that's not even a real word!
Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:53 am
ahoteinrun wrote:Morningstar wrote:
And, hey, Inrun, just for the record, there's a whole bunch of you staffers (yourself included, my dear) that are pretty cool, at least in my book. And probably a whole lot of other members' books. Don't ever forget it. Just cause you aren't Chrome does not mean you aren't cool, OK?
Morningstar, i'm so cool, I make the Columbia Ice Field look hot.
Well, you and a few others are very special in my book. You don't need to be flamboyant and flashy to be a great mod. And I hope that everyone remembers that. I loved Chrome but not everyone can be Chrome, nor should they expected to be. The great mods aren't those who are always posting some cool thread so that their name gets noticed. The great mods are the ones who do their job, even when it is nasty and they feel under pressure and at odds with whoever has posted. And yet they keep their cool and show restraint. And maybe feel like no one appreciates all of the hard work they've done behind the scenes. Yet they continue on with their job. Those mods are the ones that my hat goes off to.
Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:40 am
I used to supermod at a large (90,000-member) forum community, run my own TV show-related site and forum, and am currently a mod/rater at IDB, so I have quite a bit of modding experience. I think PPT is a great community, and just a few things bother me:
1. I think that, when a thread is moved from General to a different forum, a locked copy of it (that redirects to the moved topic) should be left in General so we know what happened to it! I've had threads moved before and I had to go through my last posts to even find them, as I had no idea where they went. Sometimes it seems they've been moved to someplace that doesn't even make sense (when Avatarlog first came out, I started a thread about it and it got moved to Bill, a board I wouldn't even have thought to check -- I don't help run Avatarlog and wasn't advertising it. A thread asking about "other pet sites" got moved to Promotions & Plugging, which also doesn't seem right to me -- it wasn't an advertising thread, but a discussion of Neopets alternatives). That is probably my biggest pet peeve about PPT.
2. I also think mods coddle people a bit too much -- they are too quick to jump in and stop any arguments, even if there's no actual flaming/name-calling going on. People aren't babies; they need to learn that sometimes here, as in real life, there will be arguments, and they can't make semi-offensive generalizations and not expect to be called on it. I also don't really believe in deleting posts unless they contain profanity or are otherwise very against the rules -- it's better to leave arguments there (especially when a thread is locked) so other members can see what is and isn't acceptable. Also, as people have mentioned earlier in this thread, sometimes all "bad" posts are deleted and then a thread is locked, and anyone who comes along later has no clue what happened. This just makes the mods look overly strict, like they're locking threads pre-emptively or based on very tame arguments.
3. I don't like the way mods edit people's posts with little colored notes. That's like a waving flag, all, "Look! This person broke the rules and I'm going to humiliate them by saying so in noticeable font in their own post and not allowing them to edit it out!" Quote them in a post of your own and let them know what they did wrong, or PM them, but the editing thing is not cool. I understand you have reasons for doing it this way, but it angers people MUCH more than a new post or PM would. We used to do it the same way at IDB, but we changed our policy.
(Also, personally: when someone double-posts at IDB, I simply merge the two posts; I don't bother telling them not to double-post. Often it's an accident, or they only do it the once. If I look around and see them double-posting several times, then I will post asking them not to, or send a PM.)
I think that's it, really. Like I said, I think this is a pretty good place to post, in general... but I have been posting a lot less than I used to, mostly because I feel the moderation is a little too strict. I think I am a pretty fair arguer, attacking the points and not the person, and yet many arguments I make here just end up getting deleted, so it's like.. why even bother posting, you know? The forum doesn't need to be sunshine and roses all the time; let arguments stand as long as they don't turn into a flame war.
Edit: One more thing: in the screenies thread, I totally understand the "no larger than 500x500 pixels" rule... but please, when someone posts a too-large picture, just turn it into a link instead of removing it completely? I see so many "Look at this awesome thing that happened! [picture removed for being too large]" posts, and it drives me nuts.
1. I think that, when a thread is moved from General to a different forum, a locked copy of it (that redirects to the moved topic) should be left in General so we know what happened to it! I've had threads moved before and I had to go through my last posts to even find them, as I had no idea where they went. Sometimes it seems they've been moved to someplace that doesn't even make sense (when Avatarlog first came out, I started a thread about it and it got moved to Bill, a board I wouldn't even have thought to check -- I don't help run Avatarlog and wasn't advertising it. A thread asking about "other pet sites" got moved to Promotions & Plugging, which also doesn't seem right to me -- it wasn't an advertising thread, but a discussion of Neopets alternatives). That is probably my biggest pet peeve about PPT.
2. I also think mods coddle people a bit too much -- they are too quick to jump in and stop any arguments, even if there's no actual flaming/name-calling going on. People aren't babies; they need to learn that sometimes here, as in real life, there will be arguments, and they can't make semi-offensive generalizations and not expect to be called on it. I also don't really believe in deleting posts unless they contain profanity or are otherwise very against the rules -- it's better to leave arguments there (especially when a thread is locked) so other members can see what is and isn't acceptable. Also, as people have mentioned earlier in this thread, sometimes all "bad" posts are deleted and then a thread is locked, and anyone who comes along later has no clue what happened. This just makes the mods look overly strict, like they're locking threads pre-emptively or based on very tame arguments.
3. I don't like the way mods edit people's posts with little colored notes. That's like a waving flag, all, "Look! This person broke the rules and I'm going to humiliate them by saying so in noticeable font in their own post and not allowing them to edit it out!" Quote them in a post of your own and let them know what they did wrong, or PM them, but the editing thing is not cool. I understand you have reasons for doing it this way, but it angers people MUCH more than a new post or PM would. We used to do it the same way at IDB, but we changed our policy.
(Also, personally: when someone double-posts at IDB, I simply merge the two posts; I don't bother telling them not to double-post. Often it's an accident, or they only do it the once. If I look around and see them double-posting several times, then I will post asking them not to, or send a PM.)
I think that's it, really. Like I said, I think this is a pretty good place to post, in general... but I have been posting a lot less than I used to, mostly because I feel the moderation is a little too strict. I think I am a pretty fair arguer, attacking the points and not the person, and yet many arguments I make here just end up getting deleted, so it's like.. why even bother posting, you know? The forum doesn't need to be sunshine and roses all the time; let arguments stand as long as they don't turn into a flame war.
Edit: One more thing: in the screenies thread, I totally understand the "no larger than 500x500 pixels" rule... but please, when someone posts a too-large picture, just turn it into a link instead of removing it completely? I see so many "Look at this awesome thing that happened! [picture removed for being too large]" posts, and it drives me nuts.
Last edited by Cranberry on Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:18 am
Cranberry wrote:2. I also think mods coddle people a bit too much -- they are too quick to jump in and stop any arguments, even if there's no actual flaming/name-calling going on. People aren't babies; they need to learn that sometimes here, as in real life, there will be arguments, and they can't make semi-offensive generalizations and not expect to be called on it. I also don't really believe in deleting posts unless they contain profanity or are otherwise very against the rules -- it's better to leave arguments there so other members can see what is and isn't acceptable. Also, as people have mentioned earlier in this thread, sometimes all "bad" posts are deleted and then a thread is locked, and anyone who comes along later has no clue what happened. This just makes the mods look overly strict, like they're locking threads pre-emptively or based on very tame arguments.
I've seen some pretty nasty stuff happen out of something we thought was harmless. Trust me...people can be quite harsh with eachother sometimes. Its best to step in early, and keep it from getting out of hand. If you try to stop something midfight, it only spills over elsewhere, which is more work for the mods.
as for the moving and locking: so many things get moved and/or locked that the forms would be a mess of dead posts. We tried it once and it made things very cluttered and moved some good functioning posts to the next page, where they are ignored.
Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:26 am
MarchingDuck wrote:I've seen some pretty nasty stuff happen out of something we thought was harmless. Trust me...people can be quite harsh with eachother sometimes. Its best to step in early, and keep it from getting out of hand. If you try to stop something midfight, it only spills over elsewhere, which is more work for the mods.
Haha, you haven't seen fights until you've seen TV couple ("shipper") wars (trust me, I had to break up hundreds of them in my years at the TV forums). Maybe my idea of "harmless" is just very different from most of the members' here. Many people here seem very sensitive!
as for the moving and locking: so many things get moved and/or locked that the forms would be a mess of dead posts. We tried it once and it made things very cluttered and moved some good functioning posts to the next page, where they are ignored.
Sure, but if the threads just disappear and no one has a clue where they went, that makes it more likely someone else will come along and start a duplicate thread. Also, it doesn't have to be every thread, but with my examples (the Avatarlog and "other pet sites" threads), those were not run-of-the-mill threads and were generating quite a bit of discussion, so why not leave a link to them? Threads could be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. I just think something needs to be changed, because right now threads just go *poof,* and it's extremely frustrating.
Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:12 am
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with your opinion, Cranberry. I really don't think that leaving copies of threads solves problems, and in fact I think it creates more problems than it's worth.
First, I really don't think that creating less chance for duplicate threads is a really valid argument because honestly I don't believe that most duplicate threads are created by people who read the existing forum's threads carefully or the forum's description. If a forum has a big problem with a repeated mistake, the best way to communicate this is through a sticky or an amendment to the forum description, not by having the thread floating around there. User may also see one thread that was moved and think that similar threads belong in that forum rather than the forum to which the original thread was moved. This can cause more problems since a lot of users do tend to be "follow the leader" when it comes to posting.
Also, I really feel that it's the user's responsibility to keep track of his or her own threads. Egosearches are not difficult or especially time-consuming, and usually with the browser's "find" capability posts can be found within seconds. Is a minute of your life really worth the possible confusion? I think it would be especially nice for mods to PM you linking to the thread and saying "It's now in such and such forum" but that is a courtesy and we should not expect moderators to do that much for us.
I think your points are absolutely valid, but in my opinion the cons outweigh the pros.
First, I really don't think that creating less chance for duplicate threads is a really valid argument because honestly I don't believe that most duplicate threads are created by people who read the existing forum's threads carefully or the forum's description. If a forum has a big problem with a repeated mistake, the best way to communicate this is through a sticky or an amendment to the forum description, not by having the thread floating around there. User may also see one thread that was moved and think that similar threads belong in that forum rather than the forum to which the original thread was moved. This can cause more problems since a lot of users do tend to be "follow the leader" when it comes to posting.
Also, I really feel that it's the user's responsibility to keep track of his or her own threads. Egosearches are not difficult or especially time-consuming, and usually with the browser's "find" capability posts can be found within seconds. Is a minute of your life really worth the possible confusion? I think it would be especially nice for mods to PM you linking to the thread and saying "It's now in such and such forum" but that is a courtesy and we should not expect moderators to do that much for us.
I think your points are absolutely valid, but in my opinion the cons outweigh the pros.
Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:33 am
No, I do agree with everything Cranberry said, especially about editing posts.
I'm going to be brutally honest here but it seems apparent that there's a plaster for every sore. I really do appreciate the moderation team giving us a chance to voice our opinions on how the forum is run and although the staff do a great job as it is, there is always room for improvement. A lot of long standing, eloquent members have bought up many points on how we could all improve the forums but every suggestion has been pretty much excused by somebody. As in, "yes that's a valid point but... *insert reason why it shouldn't be changed*". For example, if a lot of people have issues with the mod edited posts, it should be addressed, not dismissed with "but it's easier to edit than send a PM". It's obviously something a lot of forum members have a problem with.
I also have a problem with when moderators lock a topic if it goes slightly off-topic. I can agree if something goes wildly off-topic, to the point of pure spam but it shouldn't be locked if it takes a different, yet still interesting turn of conversation.
Now, I'm just nit-picking here. Apart from these minor issues, I think the staff do a fantastic job. I think forum members need to work on respecting the mods. Maybe one of the mods should write an article for Pink Ink as in insight of what it's like to be a mod because ordinary members have no idea of the hard work it takes.
Personally, I think there are issues that all members of this forum need to work on. I just thought that in this case, honesty was the best policy.
EDIT: Actually, one of my pet peeves with PPT comes from the members side and not the mods. When a mod tells you drop a line of conversation or beginning of an argument, you drop it. You do not ignore the mod completely and continue bickering. That's how threads get locked.
I'm going to be brutally honest here but it seems apparent that there's a plaster for every sore. I really do appreciate the moderation team giving us a chance to voice our opinions on how the forum is run and although the staff do a great job as it is, there is always room for improvement. A lot of long standing, eloquent members have bought up many points on how we could all improve the forums but every suggestion has been pretty much excused by somebody. As in, "yes that's a valid point but... *insert reason why it shouldn't be changed*". For example, if a lot of people have issues with the mod edited posts, it should be addressed, not dismissed with "but it's easier to edit than send a PM". It's obviously something a lot of forum members have a problem with.
I also have a problem with when moderators lock a topic if it goes slightly off-topic. I can agree if something goes wildly off-topic, to the point of pure spam but it shouldn't be locked if it takes a different, yet still interesting turn of conversation.
Now, I'm just nit-picking here. Apart from these minor issues, I think the staff do a fantastic job. I think forum members need to work on respecting the mods. Maybe one of the mods should write an article for Pink Ink as in insight of what it's like to be a mod because ordinary members have no idea of the hard work it takes.
Personally, I think there are issues that all members of this forum need to work on. I just thought that in this case, honesty was the best policy.
EDIT: Actually, one of my pet peeves with PPT comes from the members side and not the mods. When a mod tells you drop a line of conversation or beginning of an argument, you drop it. You do not ignore the mod completely and continue bickering. That's how threads get locked.