Stealth mode is back!

[Twinkle]

If your kid can't be online without catching the focus of a predator, whether it's their fault or not, then don't let them online.

Er what? So kids should be punished for internet perverts? Yeah okay. Nice logic there buddy.

Neopets should be doing everything they can to help parents ensure their childrens safety. There should be at least one safe (ish) place on the web.

[Asthaloth]

If your kid can't be online without catching the focus of a predator, whether it's their fault or not, then don't let them online.

Er what? So kids should be punished for internet perverts? Yeah okay. Nice logic there buddy.

Neopets should be doing everything they can to help parents ensure their childrens safety. There should be at least one safe (ish) place on the web.

No, he's suggesting that kids should be punished for being foolish enough to give out personal information to someone who has complete anonymity...
And. Well, yeah.

[metalmario]

Maybe kids shouldn't be friending people they don't know outside of neopets? In case you haven't noticed, PPT also has the neofriend feature, but "worse" - it shows anybody and everybody, friend or not, logged in or not, who is online right now. Most forums do this.
Parents should just teach their kids what not to say to people online, and if the kid's smart they'll follow it and be fine.
It's like all those stories of 13 year olds who meet someone on MySpace, meet them in real life, and get [whatever] done to them. Then the parents have the nerve to blame MySpace?!

[Daze]

Maybe kids shouldn't be friending people they don't know outside of neopets? In case you haven't noticed, PPT also has the neofriend feature, but "worse" - it shows anybody and everybody, friend or not, logged in or not, who is online right now. Most forums do this.
Parents should just teach their kids what not to say to people online, and if the kid's smart they'll follow it and be fine.
It's like all those stories of 13 year olds who meet someone on MySpace, meet them in real life, and get [whatever] done to them. Then the parents have the nerve to blame MySpace?!

Actually you can hide your online status on PPT. I do.

Neopets is a child-friendly site, it shouldn't have online status available.

Also the point here isn't whether the parents are to blame if something happens to their children, but if Neopets should be invading our privacy by letting others see what time and for how long we are on Neo for.

We can blame the children for being foolish, you can blame the parents for being lazy, but equally, some of the blame must fall on the sites that make it easier for predators to have access to innocent people (not just children can be duped).

[VirtualMetal]

Myspace is a badly run unmoderated site for teens and adults. It' is unfair to compare it. Neopets is classed as a trusted site for many adults with children and even supervised children are still having their privacy invaded. Why should they have to remove their neofriends to remain unnoticed online. Neofriends lists are a feature to keep track of friends usernames, if they want us to know anymore than that, they should have the option to chose to do so.

The main thing here is that it's an invasion of privacy. If you like the feature, that's grand, but why should those of us who have a problem with it have it forced on us? Aside from all the scare stories, we have a right to privacy for whatever reason, even if that reason seems over zealous, we've a right to be paranoid. I have the option to be invisible on all other sites I visit, why should neopets be diferent?

[AySz88]

[edit: this is a reply to the thread in general]

Why is showing your online status an invasion of privacy? It's no more private than seeing what items are in your shop, for example. It's one of those unavoidable and indispensable things to function - just as you need to see the items in the shop to buy them, you need to know whether someone is online to talk with them. Claiming "invasion of privacy" is inaccurate and causes panic.

If you want to argue something like "they didn't warn me and have limited my control over who is allowed to see my online status", that's a completely different story. I have to agree that TNT really should allow non-premium people another tool to control this, by ex. limiting to only VIP-tagged neofriends.

Last edited by AySz88 on Tue May 08, 2007 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Matrinka]

Well, I personally don't like that people can monitor what I'm doing with my free time. There is no need for them to know. To me, it's like looking in my windows with a stop-watch timing my actions. "She just spend 1 hour knitting. 36 minutes dancing to music. 3 hours working. Watched TV for 46 minutes." The argument can be made that because my windows were open, I'm asking people to do this. Sure, its an extreme example, but it covers the same point: even if I'm online, no one needs to know how long I've been there.

Another example of why this is a bad idea: an employee decides to play Neopets during their lunch hour on their own computer. They are allowed to use company bandwidth during free time. Well, they forget to log out. The boss walks by and sees another employee, on their free time, playing Neopets and recognizes the account name. What do they do? Disciplinary action for playing a game during work hours. Extreme? Yes. However, I worked for a very large company for a number of years - sometimes they *are* out to get rid of employees. Not every state has a ton of worker's rights laws. They can fire for any excuse - this online time monitoring could be one reason to fire an employee that can easily be replaced by a lower-waged person. It's not very probable, but very possible.

I deleted everyone who is not a close friend of mine because I just don't want people to be able to know when I'm online. Sometimes, I want to relax and play a game without interacting with people. If my AIM is turned off or on invisible, my friends Neomail me asking why I'm hiding - they know I'm online. I don't think they should be able to know if I'm playing on the internet. Sometimes, I want to relax and be left alone - without leaving the door open to hurt feelings.

[Daze]

Why is showing your online status an invasion of privacy? It's no more private than seeing what items are in your shop, for example. It's one of those unavoidable and indispensable things to function - just as you need to see the items in the shop to buy them, you need to know whether someone is online to talk with them. Claiming "invasion of privacy" is inaccurate and causes panic.

Invasion of privacy is a legal term essentially defined as a violation of the right to be left alone.

How can seeing what items are in your shop an invasion of privacy? Does it tell the person you are online at that point in time? Does it tell the person buying from you how long you have been on? NO.

So the points you make are invalid.

My point is very valid to say that in real-time people can see when I come online and how long I stay on for without me actually wanted them to, is an invasion of privacy.

And I see no one causing panic.

EDIT: Because some people are being picky!

If you can't understand it now, then I can't help you.

Last edited by Daze on Tue May 08, 2007 3:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

[metalmario]

Myspace is a badly run unmoderated site for teens and adults. It' is unfair to compare it. Neopets is classed as a trusted site for many adults with children and even supervised children are still having their privacy invaded.

My point was who the blame is put on, not of the "quality" of supervision. It's like blaming a paper factory or the post office when someone sends you junk mail, when you were the one who signed up at the WIN A FREE CAR* booth at the mall.

I really don't see the "problem," if you deem someone worthy of being your friend you add them. If you don't think they have a right to know you're online then they're not really a friend now are they? It's just a buddy list - like on AIM. I'd understand the outrage if everyone could see everyone, but it's just your friends.

If you're still paranoid, write down their names, unfriend them, and wait for TNT to give the option to turn it off. Then refriend them. The module is still in beta, after all, I doubt they're done with it.

[Cerise]

Personally, it has a lot less to do with paranoia than just wanting to be alone. Im not afraid of being abducted or having people locking me out of my account. I just dont want to be seen. I'd have less of a problem if they had a handy little "do not disturb" option and didnt list how long I've been online. Frankly, Im a little embarrassed if it shows Ive been on longer than 4 hours, and its annoying when it shows misleading times.

And like its been said, the definition of 'neofriend' is different for everyone. I accepted people who asked for my help. Some people accept whoever joins their guild, or people they lent/borrowed an item with. A neofriend list can be a handy way to keep track of people you've dealt with on the site. These arent people who I actually want to talk to whenever they see me online though. They dont usually have bad intentions, they're just annoying to idly chat with.

[AySz88]

How can seeing what items are in your shop [be] an invasion of privacy? Does it tell the person you are online at that point in time? Does it tell the person buying from you how long you have been on? NO.

So the points you make are invalid.

My point is very valid to say that in real-time people can see when I come online and how long I stay on for without me actually wanted them to, is an invasion of privacy.

I think you misunderstood me. My point was that items in a shop are not invasion of privacy - and neither is showing online status, as both are inherently necessary to the particular function of a feature (in the status's case, use of Neomail as a moderated semi-instant messaging system).

One can say (and I would agree) that TNT was wrong to give the privilege to all Neofriends as default and only choice. (I'd much prefer they change it to VIP-tagged ones only.) I think this matches your point. But that's a different story and it's more a lack of imagination on the part of TNT than a privacy breach. (Not realizing that "my Neofriend" != "my friend" is a Very Bad Thing, especially after a similar Facebook fiasco, but it's not a totally obvious phenomenon and isn't an incomprehensible oversight.)

And I see no one causing panic.

The improper use of the phrase "invasion of privacy", taken with its connotations, is itself panic-inducing. (In this context, I am referring to the vernacular meaning, not any legal definition.) The phrase usually conjures up images of some sort of (sometimes malicious) attempt at digging up dirt - see U.S. mass media usage - and that's certainly not what's happening here.

[Daze]

The improper use of the phrase "invasion of privacy", taken with its connotations, is itself panic-inducing. (In this context, I am referring to the vernacular meaning, not any legal definition.) The phrase usually conjures up images of some sort of malicious attempt at digging up dirt - see U.S. mass media usage - and that's certainly not what's happening here.

We don't know TNT's thoughts behind it - they didn't ask if we wanted, it was just thrust upon us without any option to modify it to our personal choices.

I never in my mind, invisioned what you have discribed and none of my posts are saying that TNT are doing it for other reasons. It is not TNT who are invading our privacy but our Neofriends, through no fault of their own.

TNT do not need any other devices to 'see' us, they already know more than enough about us and our accounts. I just don't see the reason for letting other's see our every move.

Whether it is malicious or not (I don't believe TNT are malicious), it is still a feature that does invade privacy. Most of us here at PPT are mature-minded and focused, none are going to cry out in hysteria because of a couple of posts.

Just to add a scenerio - I have neighbours - they know I live next door to them, but they don't know when I leave the house or how long I stay out or when I come home. Now if my neighbour sat at his window all day to watch me and then phone me everytime I walked in the door, that would be an invasion of privacy (and probably a stalker).

My Neofriends aren't quite the same, but the effect is the same - I don't want people knowing my every move. Yes, they are my 'friends' but still they are people I don't actually know and I don't need my Neo habits to be seen by them.

I have kept my Neofriends and luckily being a smallish guild, we have tried not to invade each other's space.

[l_club23]

Invasion of privacy seems to have been taken out of context here...

[VirtualMetal]

Why is showing your online status an invasion of privacy? It's no more private than seeing what items are in your shop, for example. It's one of those unavoidable and indispensable things to function - just as you need to see the items in the shop to buy them, you need to know whether someone is online to talk with them. Claiming "invasion of privacy" is inaccurate and causes panic.

When I'm leasurely playing neopets all day long on a rainy day, everyone knows it. It's my right to go about my online business without my friends being able to say "Haha, so you played on yer computer games all weekend!" It's nothing to do with panic, I think you're getting my comments mixed with others. I don't like it for the simple reason I don't want ANYONE to know when I'm dossing about on neopets. Why should I be denied that? If they want to talk to me they can neomail and wait til I respond. If I really want a real time conversation, we arange a time when I actually want to. They don't dictate to me when we "chat" just because I'm online at a given time.

If the term "Invasion of privacy" is your only problem, then I shan't use it. But it makes no shred of a diference how it's termed. Fact is, I can no longer be invisible on neopets from my neofiends list, and that is a privacy issue no matter how you try to dress it up and compare it with things not worth comparing.

I really don't see the "problem," if you deem someone worthy of being your friend you add them. If you don't think they have a right to know you're online then they're not really a friend now are they? It's just a buddy list - like on AIM. I'd understand the outrage if everyone could see everyone, but it's just your friends.

You're comparing an instant chat program/chat website with a community gaming website. They're entirely diferent things. People on neopets don't really need to know when we're online. If you want them to have that ability, it should be your choice. We've not had anything like this for 7 years and now we're told to deal with it just because it's like MSN or AIM? Can you not see how that's unfair?

Also, for the point you make about friends, I don't agree. On neopets I have friends ranging from best friends, relations to random people I talk to often. I don't even want my best mate knowing how long I've been online for. I love them to bits but no, I really don't. It's nothing to do with how good a friend they are or how much I trust them, I just want the option not to have them see "VM has been online for 7 hours how lazy!" because that's how it feels. When I want them to know whether I'm online the select few have my instant messinger, and I turn that on from time to time. I don't even have that on all day and even there it has an option to be invisible.

Just to add a scenerio - I have neighbours - they know I live next door to them, but they don't know when I leave the house or how long I stay out or when I come home. Now if my neighbour sat at his window all day to watch me and then phone me everytime I walked in the door, that would be an invasion of privacy (and probably a stalker).

Couldn't have put that better myself.

I do live in the middle of nowhere myself, so maybe I like my privacy a little more. I don't see why it's a bad thing. I can go into town for a pint if I want to talk with other humans, they're not there at my window waiting for me! As in neopets I can go to the forums, or send a mail if I want to talk. If they feel like responding, they will. As they'll be in the pub if they feel like talking in the real world. =)


As a final point. I'm not going to write my neofriends names on bits of paper to lose forever. The neofriend feature was made for that and lasted my 7 years on neo. So far no one has taken advantage of this new addition and I hope it'll stay that way until TNT gives us the option to alter it. Until then, don't bug your neofriends! =D

[AySz88]

I think you're getting my comments mixed with others.

I was replying to the thread in general, not your post in particular; I'm sorry I made it seem otherwise.

If the term "Invasion of privacy" is your only problem, then I shan't use it. But it makes no shred of a diference how it's termed. Fact is, I can no longer be invisible on neopets from my neofiends list, and that is a privacy issue no matter how you try to dress it up and compare it with things not worth comparing.

...

You're comparing an instant chat program/chat website with a community gaming website. They're entirely diferent things. People on neopets don't really need to know when we're online.

I don't know how you use Neomail and the Neoboards, but from my view of things, they sure seem like rudimentary moderated versions of IM and chat rooms. They're certainly not used like traditional e-mail or message boards (particularly the non-premium Neoboards - how Neomail is used depends on the person and their contacts). If you don't agree, we'll just have to agree to disagree (and of course, the whole "necessary to function" analogy wouldn't make sense to you).