Greasemonkey problem

[TDG]

Do you really think that Improveneo would contain something like that? And if it did, you think that people would still be singing it's praises on the openly advertised "Improveneo Sub forum" on the Daq forum?

Unless your thinking of some other Programs that may use GreaseMonkey (Which I'm unaware of).

If not, surely the same argument can cover the viewpoint that all HTML/JavaScript/User own images/content or whatever allows people to use CG'ers should also be disabled too? - Which they really haven’t blocked fully due to fact we see CG'ers popping up once a month or so.

In all, it isn't really "Under the Bridge", with the founding member of the Daq forums still being frozen for simply having this supposedly "hidden" area of his forum with the GreaseMonkey Script. (Which has been there, openly visible for at least 6 months, how long would it have taken neo to put a message on the news notifying us whether or not it was not allowed? 1 or 2 minutes?) Rather than blundering in freezing people, (whatever happened to warnings/suspensions?)

It's just a pity that the lack of communication we have between TNT on matters such as this has led to this.

(And don't get me started on the fact that TNT is exploiting a Firefox bug to invade our privacy)

Just my 2p

Jon

I wasn't saying ImproveNeo had malicious coding in it, I was saying Greasemonkey can potentially have it in it.

ImproveNeo does give you an advantage - exihibit A (I know exactly what profit each item will net me. others without ImproveNeo do not. I have an advantage over them) - and it is clearly against the rules. But its not just that, its also the potential for abuse by Greasemonkey. They found a problem with cheating and potentially a problem with scamming, and they acted to stop it.

Their actions weren't great, but they acted. W3 got caught for doing something wrong and was punished, even though he wasn't in charge of it, he was still using it and that is against the rules. Its a shame they were caught when so many other abusers of more malicious codes aren't, but that's just how it is.

Oh, and crazed, our rights as consumers in this case are pretty much limited to "a good/service of acceptable quality." Is the game a game that you can play? Yes - our rights are fulfilled. Neopets is under no obligation to even allow us their service, just like anywhere else, they can deny customers for no reason if they wanted. Its not good PR, but its their right (provided they don't discriminate)

We have no legal right to expect them to jump through hoops for us. In essence, the reacted to a problem by trying to nip the problem in the bud. Companies, including websites, can't be sued for acting within their rights (well, maybe in America...)

Neopets isn't as great as in the glory days, but 99% of the time, you don't get frozen if you actually follow the rules.

Some nice wee quotes from the ToS

7. Cheating Is Bad.
If you use cheat programs on any Neopets games, including non-Neopets software or programs, we will freeze all of your accounts.

(I particularly like this next one)

By accessing and using this Site, you agree to be legally bound by these Terms and Conditions. If you do not agree to these terms, please do not use the Site.

You acknowledge and agree that you are not permitted under any circumstances or for any reason to cheat or utilize third-party games or code in order to win at, or gain Neopoints or Items from any Neopets game. You agree not to design, disseminate or use any third party programs designed to change the game play on the site including, but without limitations, programs such as autobuyers, flash game cheats, autofreshers, and sniper

The privileges granted to you under this Agreement will terminate immediately and automatically without notice from Neopets if, in our sole discretion, you fail to comply with any term or provision of these Terms and Conditions

Q. I was caught cheating on one of my accounts, but all my accounts were frozen. Why did that happen?
A. When someone is caught breaking the rules, the site monitors can freeze every one of that player's accounts, depending on the offense committed and the player's prior conduct. If you break the rules, you face Neopian justice administered by Lawyerbot and his minions.

A. Yes. You cannot have your computer play the site without you.

I fail to see what isn't clearly stated about Greasemonkey scripts that affect Neo.

As for the privacy issue people keep throwing everywhere, so what? They looked into your computer and saw you had or didn't have Greasemonkey? I highly doubt they have people recording who does and who doesn't. Its not like they went through your cookies or into your history or anything. They know nothing more from you than before other than the fact you have Greasemonkey (whether it has scripts installed on it or not) on your computer. Sure, it was underhanded, but they could have done a lot worse. Think of it as a phonetap that checks if you have the number 3. It doesn't record your conversations or numbers dialed, just wants to know if you have the number 3

[Morningstar]

Thank you, the_dog_god, for your brilliant insight on this matter. Your posts are so informative.

I would like to add two things. First, many of you ImproveNeo users claim that TNT was contacted about whether or not littlemac's program was allowed to be used on the site. PLEASE provide me with a link that proves this. A link where someone actually said they contacted TNT to inquire Because I have read through all of the pertinent threads on improveneo.com, neoitems.net, and neodaq.com and have found absolutely nothing to say that. In fact, I see nothing but the complete opposite. Just because the program has been around for several months and just because lots of people used it does not mean that it was ever approved by Neopets. It is not Neopets' job to check out every cheat program out there. It is the creator's and promotor's responsibility to get approval of a program before tossing it out to the masses. After all, my guess is that there are lots of autobot programs out there. Probably some that have been around just as long as ImproveNeo. And if you did a google search, you could probably find them. And my guess is that many people resort to using these programs. So, gee, does that mean that they are legal???? NO!

Second, many of you also say, oh my gosh, the creator of ImproveNeo would never, ever do anything bad. How exactly do you know that to be a fact?????? After all, every day you hear sob stories of people lending "good friends" FQD's or millions of nps (for the Adam av) or BD items and suddenly the friend screws them over. And those people are supposed friends. If you look at all of the posts littlemac has made here on PPT, you will see that he was quite boastful of his knowledge of CGers and of holes in Neopets' security system. Let me say that I am not accusing him of anything. He might be the most honest man in the world for all I know. But, see, though I have talked to him on PPT on the boards and via PMs, I don't know the man whatsoever. And, personally, I would never, ever download a program that someone had created unless I considered that person to be one of my bestest friends. And even then, I'd probably get a computer expert to look over the script first.

[psyco_chick32]

I'll repeat, I don't use greasemonkey (much less improveneo) and never have...
But does anybody have a suggestion on how I can help my neice get her account back? I double-checked at her dad's, and while he DOES have greasemonkey, he does NOT have improveneo (I didn't think he would... again, he's never accessed the site in his life). I can't imagine any other possible "cheat program" that she could have blundered into...

I tried getting ahold of flighttime and he insisted that she had to have had a cheat program.

I'm not upset about the improveneo thing at all... in fact, I think it was the right thing to do. I'm just really, really upset for my neice that she would get iced for having greasemonkey on her dad's computer. And she's 10... it's not like she understands what to turn off and how to do it properly.

[fructy]

I'll repeat, I don't use greasemonkey (much less improveneo) and never have...
But does anybody have a suggestion on how I can help my neice get her account back? I double-checked at her dad's, and while he DOES have greasemonkey, he does NOT have improveneo (I didn't think he would... again, he's never accessed the site in his life). I can't imagine any other possible "cheat program" that she could have blundered into...

I tried getting ahold of flighttime and he insisted that she had to have had a cheat program.

I'm not upset about the improveneo thing at all... in fact, I think it was the right thing to do. I'm just really, really upset for my neice that she would get iced for having greasemonkey on her dad's computer. And she's 10... it's not like she understands what to turn off and how to do it properly.

The only thing you can do right now is to sumbit the form for her. You'll get a standard email back, then mail them again explaining things and why you think your niece hasn't broken the rules. Keep persisting, it might take a few emails to convince them and it might take weeks/months if they ever give the account back. Just stay polite and be patient.

Maybe you can also ask her dad to reply/write a letter? He can vouch that he had Greasemonkey installed for his work. They will probably listen better to a parent/adult then to a 10 year old girl.

[thegreenside]

I'll repeat, I don't use greasemonkey (much less improveneo) and never have...
But does anybody have a suggestion on how I can help my neice get her account back? I double-checked at her dad's, and while he DOES have greasemonkey, he does NOT have improveneo (I didn't think he would... again, he's never accessed the site in his life). I can't imagine any other possible "cheat program" that she could have blundered into...

I tried getting ahold of flighttime and he insisted that she had to have had a cheat program.

I'm not upset about the improveneo thing at all... in fact, I think it was the right thing to do. I'm just really, really upset for my neice that she would get iced for having greasemonkey on her dad's computer. And she's 10... it's not like she understands what to turn off and how to do it properly.

The script that ran/runs on the shop wizard doesn't look if a person has improveneo installed (because it can't?) but only looks if a person has greasemonkey installed. It doesn't even matter if it is currently active. So it's not entirely impossible that your niece could be frozen just because her dad had greasemonkey installed.

[Asparagus Queen]

Sorry to hear about your daughter's account psyco_chick32. I'm sure others got frozen for having greasemonkey running as well. Don't contact flighttime, he was the one yelling at everyone on the premium boards for spreading "misinformation" and telling us we were going to get frozen, for discussing Neopets exploiting a bug. (We were hardly talking about Improveneo, the discussion was about the FF bug.) Try contacting someone else. Also, I would write them a snail mail letter, perhaps listing the greasemonkey scripts that your husband is running. Maybe include his business card so they can see his place of employment hired him for his computer knowledge. You can't put in enough facts. )

W3 was frozen for having greasemonkey running. The ENT still couldn't detect one greasemonkey script from another, so they were just assuming he had Improveneo running - they didn't know for sure. (He's also said he wasn't using it. Whether it was installed, I don't know.) Unfortunately they probably assumed many people were running Improveneo.

This thread also isn't about whether or not Improveneo is legal or not. I always thought it was walking the line, and don't, nor ever have, condoned it (although I think it's cool and love having the prices on neoitems.net, and anyone that got frozen for using it should have been expecting it. This is about Neopets freezing and hurting innocent people by exploiting a FF bug, by stopping anyone running greasemonkey, because they assumed anyone running Greasemonkey would be running Improveneo.

[fructy]

is about Neopets freezing and hurting innocent people by exploiting a FF bug, by stopping anyone running greasemonkey, because they assumed anyone running Greasemonkey would be running Improveneo.

I read some other forum about this. People are claiming that TNT is abusing a FF glitch by searching for a certain image on your brower. Could someone explain this? How is this abusing a glitch? I'm not very computer savy and I don't get all the computer talk about it.

It would be very ironic if TNT froze people for using a program, by abusing a FF glitch....

[Darth_Coral]

Do you really think that Improveneo would contain something like that? And if it did, you think that people would still be singing it's praises on the openly advertised "Improveneo Sub forum" on the Daq forum?

Unless your thinking of some other Programs that may use GreaseMonkey (Which I'm unaware of).

If not, surely the same argument can cover the viewpoint that all HTML/JavaScript/User own images/content or whatever allows people to use CG'ers should also be disabled too? - Which they really haven’t blocked fully due to fact we see CG'ers popping up once a month or so.

In all, it isn't really "Under the Bridge", with the founding member of the Daq forums still being frozen for simply having this supposedly "hidden" area of his forum with the GreaseMonkey Script. (Which has been there, openly visible for at least 6 months, how long would it have taken neo to put a message on the news notifying us whether or not it was not allowed? 1 or 2 minutes?) Rather than blundering in freezing people, (whatever happened to warnings/suspensions?)

It's just a pity that the lack of communication we have between TNT on matters such as this has led to this.

(And don't get me started on the fact that TNT is exploiting a Firefox bug to invade our privacy)

Just my 2p

Jon

I wasn't saying ImproveNeo had malicious coding in it, I was saying Greasemonkey can potentially have it in it.

ImproveNeo does give you an advantage - exihibit A (I know exactly what profit each item will net me. others without ImproveNeo do not. I have an advantage over them) - and it is clearly against the rules. But its not just that, its also the potential for abuse by Greasemonkey. They found a problem with cheating and potentially a problem with scamming, and they acted to stop it.

Their actions weren't great, but they acted. W3 got caught for doing something wrong and was punished, even though he wasn't in charge of it, he was still using it and that is against the rules. Its a shame they were caught when so many other abusers of more malicious codes aren't, but that's just how it is.

Oh, and crazed, our rights as consumers in this case are pretty much limited to "a good/service of acceptable quality." Is the game a game that you can play? Yes - our rights are fulfilled. Neopets is under no obligation to even allow us their service, just like anywhere else, they can deny customers for no reason if they wanted. Its not good PR, but its their right (provided they don't discriminate)

We have no legal right to expect them to jump through hoops for us. In essence, the reacted to a problem by trying to nip the problem in the bud. Companies, including websites, can't be sued for acting within their rights (well, maybe in America...)

Neopets isn't as great as in the glory days, but 99% of the time, you don't get frozen if you actually follow the rules.

Some nice wee quotes from the ToS

7. Cheating Is Bad.
If you use cheat programs on any Neopets games, including non-Neopets software or programs, we will freeze all of your accounts.

(I particularly like this next one)

By accessing and using this Site, you agree to be legally bound by these Terms and Conditions. If you do not agree to these terms, please do not use the Site.

You acknowledge and agree that you are not permitted under any circumstances or for any reason to cheat or utilize third-party games or code in order to win at, or gain Neopoints or Items from any Neopets game. You agree not to design, disseminate or use any third party programs designed to change the game play on the site including, but without limitations, programs such as autobuyers, flash game cheats, autofreshers, and sniper

The privileges granted to you under this Agreement will terminate immediately and automatically without notice from Neopets if, in our sole discretion, you fail to comply with any term or provision of these Terms and Conditions

Q. I was caught cheating on one of my accounts, but all my accounts were frozen. Why did that happen?
A. When someone is caught breaking the rules, the site monitors can freeze every one of that player's accounts, depending on the offense committed and the player's prior conduct. If you break the rules, you face Neopian justice administered by Lawyerbot and his minions.

A. Yes. You cannot have your computer play the site without you.

I fail to see what isn't clearly stated about Greasemonkey scripts that affect Neo.

As for the privacy issue people keep throwing everywhere, so what? They looked into your computer and saw you had or didn't have Greasemonkey? I highly doubt they have people recording who does and who doesn't. Its not like they went through your cookies or into your history or anything. They know nothing more from you than before other than the fact you have Greasemonkey (whether it has scripts installed on it or not) on your computer. Sure, it was underhanded, but they could have done a lot worse. Think of it as a phonetap that checks if you have the number 3. It doesn't record your conversations or numbers dialed, just wants to know if you have the number 3

Back two steps, I don't think I said that Improveneo does not give people an advantage. Though the finding results from the shop wiz could be interpreted as an advantage, I personally wouldn't consider it a major one. (Control-C, Alt-Tab, Click, Control-V, Enter, Alt-Tab would easily give you that same results, taking perhaps a second or two longer - Improveneo still has to retrieve data from the Shop Wiz) But if TNT has decieded it goes against the ToS then fair play to them.

But while yes, maybe it could be interpreted, (using the vague ToS as a reference) as an unfair advantage, one of the main points here is that people have been frozen for simply using GreaseMonkey (not ImproveNeo), even for perfectly legitimate practices such as psyco_chick32's niece and her father. With W3's seemingly freezing by association being an important aspect for us 'Daqers.

As with regard to the no notice from NP whatsoever, surely the using of a third party program that is not necessarily related to Neopets altogether, (depending on whether ImproveNeo is installed.), would not be covered by the "terminate immediately and automatically without notice from Neopets" for using "programs such as autobuyers, flash game cheats, autofreshers, and sniper" section of the ToS which seems to have happened to a selected minority? Seems like a bad move by TNT.

Also with regards to privacy, so in an extreme example, it would be ok for a hacker or whatever to view information on your computer as long as he/she didn't tamper with any files? Is that even legal?

just my 2p,

Jon

[Asparagus Queen]

is about Neopets freezing and hurting innocent people by exploiting a FF bug, by stopping anyone running greasemonkey, because they assumed anyone running Greasemonkey would be running Improveneo.

I read some other forum about this. People are claiming that TNT is abusing a FF glitch by searching for a certain image on your brower. Could someone explain this? How is this abusing a glitch? I'm not very computer savy and I don't get all the computer talk about it.

It would be very ironic if TNT froze people for using a program, by abusing a FF glitch....

I'm not the best person to explain this. I know it's a bug, but I'm not computer savvy enough to explain it well.

A bug is pretty much something that makes the people who wrote the program go "oops, that's not supposed to happen like that! People shouldn't be able to do that, it's not how it was intended. We better fix that so people can't do that anymore." And on most sites, knowing that a problem is a bug, is exploiting a bug and punishable.

Anyway, Firefox was told about this by a user. See bug #292789 on the Firefox bug site for the technical long discussion. The bug allows people to see (I don't know how) what people are running on their computer. Several people have showed me sites about security issue. (again, I wouldn't know how that works.) But having this bug/flaw/hole in FF can allow people to see inside your computer (I don't think they can change anything, but I don't know the limit on what they can see.

The code Neopets was using exploited this bug, but they were not doing anything to see anything other than one picture. Greasemonkey puts a little monkey face in the lower right hand corner of your browser. Neopets simply was looking for that monkey face. The problem is that they were exploiting a bug, that is on the Firefox website as being a bug and potential security problem. They *could* add more to the code and see more inside our computers. All flighttime told us was that "nothing was altered". But everyone who knew it was a bug wasn't saying it was, so, he didn't say much.

Firefox is working on it, however it appears many of their fixes clash with how other parts of the browser work, so they're having trouble fixing it.

I hope that explained something... I guess one question I have about this - did flighttime (he wrote the code to do this, or at least he said he did) know he was exploiting a bug? I don't remember if it was flighttime or someone else who mentioned looking for the image like looking for a cookie... but those are different. If you turn on the "ask for all cookies before accepting" feature, you're aware of the cookie and know it's going to be looked for. You couldn't turn on the "look for the monkey picture" code.

[psyco_chick32]

The only thing you can do right now is to sumbit the form for her. You'll get a standard email back, then mail them again explaining things and why you think your niece hasn't broken the rules. Keep persisting, it might take a few emails to convince them and it might take weeks/months if they ever give the account back. Just stay polite and be patient.

Maybe you can also ask her dad to reply/write a letter? He can vouch that he had Greasemonkey installed for his work. They will probably listen better to a parent/adult then to a 10 year old girl.

Thanks. I've submitted the form for her and am waiting for a response. Another problem is that I'm headed to Florida for vacation Monday morning, so that'll be a week that I'm gone, and a week in which she can't do anything.
She worked really hard on this account (a lot harder than I would have ever worked on something like this, I'll tell ya) and she had been SO excited about just getting the lab map. I almost want to let her use my account while I'm gone, but with the luck that hits the two of us, that's a REALLY bad idea.
I'll have my husband contact her father on Monday to send them a snail-mail letter... he had no idea that something he uses for work could cause problems like this. He feels terrible because she's hearbroken.
Before I leave on Monday - any other suggestions?

[Rakumel]

I tried getting ahold of flighttime and he insisted that she had to have had a cheat program.

I'm not upset about the improveneo thing at all... in fact, I think it was the right thing to do. I'm just really, really upset for my neice that she would get iced for having greasemonkey on her dad's computer. And she's 10... it's not like she understands what to turn off and how to do it properly.

Wow...I just...wow. psyco_chick, I'm so sorry. I wish I could give you some other suggestion on how to get your niece's account back. But to just be shrugged off by a staff member like that...I can't believe it. I mean, I can, somehow I'm not surprised, but I'm still saddened. Hope she gets her account back, will be rooting for you and her

After reading the posts in this thread, never thought I'd say this - but I'm glad I haven't been using Firefox for the past year (the Mac version runs great for about 5 minutes, then just up and shuts down for no reason. Very irritating).

[Asparagus Queen]

But to just be shrugged off by a staff member like that...I can't believe it.

I can. Do these posts look like a staff member who cares about the users?

flighttime
Don't touch my plushies!
Status: 75 Months
Gender: Male
Posted: 25 Jan 2007 - 11:48 pm [Report this message]
(user he was talking to)... You are representing yourself as being informed here so I really don't need to go into the reasons for our actions any further with you. You have your opinion and are fully entitled to it. That's it. enjoy your evening.

flighttime
Don't touch my plushies!
Status: 75 Months
Gender: Male
Posted: 26 Jan 2007 - 12:01 am [Report this message]
Give it a rest with this exploit nonsense. We check if an image file has loaded which tells us the extension is loaded. How or earth is that abusing an exploit? I put the code in myself this afternoon. Please, find yourself a movie house to scream fire in and stop trying to do it here.

flighttime
Don't touch my plushies!
Status: 75 Months
Gender: Male
Posted: 26 Jan 2007 - 12:13 am [Report this message]
I'm going to make one last statement here. If you are not capable of reading and understanding every line of every script you install with greasemonkey, you SHOULD NOT be using it. It can put you and all of your information at risks way beyond the CG'ers that have been seen on the site at times.
(my comment here: Does this mean we shouldn't use ANY program if we don't know ALL the coding in it? Don't download ANYTHING unless you know all the coding! Or not go to user shops unless we've checked the coding for CG'ers first?)

flighttime
Don't touch my plushies!
Status: 75 Months
Gender: Male
Posted: 26 Jan 2007 - 11:35 am [Report this message]
Ok... Based on the insistance of what I see as people screaming fire in a crowded space, I'm going to state the facts and give a warning. The code does NOT look thru or access your computer in any way. It simply checks to see if the browser has loaded a specfic file much in the same way web sites check for cookies. Nothing is altered. If this misinformation continues, accounts will be frozen.
(my comment here: The "misinformation" was people talking about the bug - NOT improveneo - and not one person said anything was being altered.)

If any employee of mine, or me being an employee, ever talked like that to customers, they'd be in trouble or fired. But we're not customers, so it's okay to get talked down to.

Edit: A part of the reason I'm so fired up about this is that I was going to let my stepson create a Neopets account soon, because he's been asking for one. But now I'm going to tell him no, that kids his age are getting their accounts frozen, and I'm not going to let him get disappointed too.

Another edit: They're searching for Greasemonkey again.

If you look at the source code, the old code is still commented out but it's returned, silently in the form. What in effect it does is if it detects greasemonkey's status_on image (unless you change the image names) it will change a value in the form being sent when you ask the shop wiz to price something. If it doesn't find the default image, It does nothing. If they are logging or if your username gets sent in with that info is another question but they are definitely looking for the monkey icon again.

Last edited by Asparagus Queen on Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

[allnameswereout]

You agree not to design, disseminate or use any third party programs designed to change the game play on the site including, but without limitations, programs such as autobuyers, flash game cheats, autofreshers, and snipers. Any use, dissemination or design of such programs is a breach of these Terms you will be responsible for any resulting damages to Neopets.

Deliberately vague.

In my opinion that program still changes the game play. I just visited the site to see what this "ImproveNeo" program is. Here are the features that program has

In my opinion, using a browser, flash, java and shockwave (and playing with any of their settings) "changes the gameplay". Anyone using such software ought to be banned. See, and that does not happen.

In other words, if you want people not to use ImproveNeo you need to be more clear in your ToC. "but without limitations" covers you legally, but is vague (deliberately scaring? ) to the user. Not a good thing.

Greasemonkey can "potentially contain malicious code". So can Mozilla Firefox. Or Adobe Flash. Or Internet Explorer. Or...

Just because someone has not read the source code of Greasemonkey does not mean they are putting themselves more in danger than someone who has not read the source code of Mozilla Firefox. Or Adobe Flash. Or Internet Explorer. Or...

In the end, you are responsible for the software you run. Programmers don't take such responsibility. This is different than e.g. real life machinery where there are manuals, security measures, liabilities, etcetera.

[Morningstar]

AQ, I read all of Greg's posts and that is NOT the way I see it at all. He was clearly being antagonized by certain posters (I was there, I read them all and even commented on them) and he was attempting to keep some members from creating mass hysteria on the boards. Like I said before and like he indicated in a few of his posts, perhaps there was a big security problem with GM and that's why they had to block it like they did.

[Nefasturris]

You agree not to design, disseminate or use any third party programs designed to change the game play on the site including, but without limitations, programs such as autobuyers, flash game cheats, autofreshers, and snipers. Any use, dissemination or design of such programs is a breach of these Terms you will be responsible for any resulting damages to Neopets.

Wait... so why is Adblock allowed to be used?