Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:55 pm
crazed wrote:What it does is "improve" neo in a way that we don't have go through open windows/tabs of neopets just to check the price of items.
Sure sounds like an unfair advantage to me.
As far as TNT not responding: I too would have prefered that they had. (And, I'm certainly sorry that w3, who has given a lot to the Neopets community, was frozen over it.) But just because they haven't specifically mentioned a particular program or type of program that can be used to gain an advantage over users doesn't make the programs they haven't mentioned OK. It's already in the T&C that we're not allowed to use them, they don't need to specify every program individually.
I guess my point is that if the people using Improveneo were playing with fire and probably knew it.
As far as the time thing goes: heck, I was speeding for years before I got my first speeding ticket. Sure, everyone does it. Sure, I was very annoyed (who isn't annoyed when they get a ticket). But the fact that people get nabbed for speeding so seldomly doesn't change the fact that I *was* speeding and the cop was within his rights to issue a ticket.
I too would have preferred the scenario where TNT told people not to use the script when asked, or where they nipped it in bud instead of letting it be used for a while before acting. However, that doesn't change the fact that, IMO, they were within their rights to do it.
As far as not letting people use the site with Greasemonky installed: that lasted for less than a day, didn't it? It's not a long-term policy of Neopets (though if it were the only way to keep people from using scripts to "improve" Neopets I think they would be within their rights to make it one.)
Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:25 pm
bgryph wrote:crazed wrote:What it does is "improve" neo in a way that we don't have go through open windows/tabs of neopets just to check the price of items.
Sure sounds like an unfair advantage to me.
As far as TNT not responding: I too would have prefered that they had. (And, I'm certainly sorry that w3, who has given a lot to the Neopets community, was frozen over it.) But just because they haven't specifically mentioned a particular program or type of program that can be used to gain an advantage over users doesn't make the programs they haven't mentioned OK. It's already in the T&C that we're not allowed to use them, they don't need to specify every program individually.
I guess my point is that if the people using Improveneo were playing with fire and probably knew it.
As far as the time thing goes: heck, I was speeding for years before I got my first speeding ticket. Sure, everyone does it. Sure, I was very annoyed (who isn't annoyed when they get a ticket). But the fact that people get nabbed for speeding so seldomly doesn't change the fact that I *was* speeding and the cop was within his rights to issue a ticket.
I too would have preferred the scenario where TNT told people not to use the script when asked, or where they nipped it in bud instead of letting it be used for a while before acting. However, that doesn't change the fact that, IMO, they were within their rights to do it.
As far as not letting people use the site with Greasemonky installed: that lasted for less than a day, didn't it? It's not a long-term policy of Neopets (though if it were the only way to keep people from using scripts to "improve" Neopets I think they would be within their rights to make it one.)
Speeding laws are different in this case. It states exactly the speed range a driver can legally drive. It states the amount of penalty, the procedures etc. It's clearly stated. While as I've said, TNT's TOC isn't clearly stated as it should be coupled with the fact that they have editorials that may agree with their TOC or conflict with it. Just look at current topics of the General Chats. It's quite obvious that there are a LOT of grey areas within TNT's rules/TOC.
I may not have described the script and its functions. For those of us who've used it, we don't see it as an "unfair advantage". It doesn't let us make neopoints or anything that can make us neoricher than anyone. It's a free script that anyone with Firefox can download just like anyone with IE can download Neopets toolbar. Really, TNT's throwing the "unfair advantage" everywhere when they haven't really drawn a CLEAR line of what is really "unfair advantage". They just say that if you do this or use this particular feature have "unfair advantage" of playing the game then you are cheating. But come on, having an updated browser, a faster computer, a faster internet can be an "unfair advantage" especially if the majority doesn't have the updated technologies.
So is it really their right to dictate to us what we can and can't use in our computers? Well, they may be within their rights to do whatever they want with their site. Fine. Really. Fine. But as customers and users of their site, I believe that we are withing our rights to complain. Complain as loudly as we can to get our points across. They wouldn't be earning anything if we aren't here in the first place, would they?
Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:30 pm
These are some quotes from the Neopets Terms and conditions:
TNT clearly states in their rules that you can't use any third party program/program that isn't made by TNT and that changes the gameplay. It's seems pretty obvious that "ImproveNeo" is a third party program and changes the gameplay, thus it's against the rules...
They do if that program changes the game play of Neopets.
7. Cheating Is Bad.
If you use cheat programs on any Neopets games, including non-Neopets software or programs, we will freeze all of your accounts.
You agree not to design, disseminate or use any third party programs designed to change the game play on the site including, but without limitations, programs such as autobuyers, flash game cheats, autofreshers, and snipers. Any use, dissemination or design of such programs is a breach of these Terms you will be responsible for any resulting damages to Neopets.
TNT clearly states in their rules that you can't use any third party program/program that isn't made by TNT and that changes the gameplay. It's seems pretty obvious that "ImproveNeo" is a third party program and changes the gameplay, thus it's against the rules...
So is it really their right to dictate to us what we can and can't use in our computers?
They do if that program changes the game play of Neopets.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:58 pm
But come on, having an updated browser, a faster computer, a faster internet can be an "unfair advantage" especially if the majority doesn't have the updated technologies.
Having a faster computer, having a faster connection, using browsers are the simple facts when playing on a gaming site.
Having my 'faster' computer is no great advantage - I am not good at a lot of games, and the faster the computer, the faster the game. Having cable internet hasn't made it easier for me to be better at restocking (still need the Chocolate Avatar).
The computer does not make the person on the other end any better.
Using a programme that clearly designed to be used as an aid to playing the site better, when TNT have stated not to (as posted above me by fructy), clearly is the 'unfair advantage'.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:14 pm
*pokes posts* Eh... looks like I opened a real can of worms here.
I admit, I did have improveneo, but I took it out after the "no Greasemonkey on SW!" thing. Was it an unfair advantage? In my case I don't think so. It highlighted sellers it 'detected' as having the lowest price (not accuartely, not all the time), it blocks shop designs (sweet relief from all those blinky things, marquees and garish colors that crop up everywhere) but that's just about it. The only noticeable result is helping me actually buy stuff without conking out my little dial-up (hence I don't RS; it's impossible). Yes, it is exploitable, and so is Greasemonkey (anyone with the right skills can make a script that, for example, auto-buys stuff for them)... still, I think TNT's reaction was along the lines of "Pencils can poke people's eyes out! BAN PENCILS!!"
Still, I'm glad it's over. Makes you worry though, if something similar will happen again. In my case, it's not as simple as switching to IE- I'm on Linux; FF is my only browser (okay, I could get Opera or something, but all that work over a game...?)
I admit, I did have improveneo, but I took it out after the "no Greasemonkey on SW!" thing. Was it an unfair advantage? In my case I don't think so. It highlighted sellers it 'detected' as having the lowest price (not accuartely, not all the time), it blocks shop designs (sweet relief from all those blinky things, marquees and garish colors that crop up everywhere) but that's just about it. The only noticeable result is helping me actually buy stuff without conking out my little dial-up (hence I don't RS; it's impossible). Yes, it is exploitable, and so is Greasemonkey (anyone with the right skills can make a script that, for example, auto-buys stuff for them)... still, I think TNT's reaction was along the lines of "Pencils can poke people's eyes out! BAN PENCILS!!"
Still, I'm glad it's over. Makes you worry though, if something similar will happen again. In my case, it's not as simple as switching to IE- I'm on Linux; FF is my only browser (okay, I could get Opera or something, but all that work over a game...?)
Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:14 pm
fructy wrote:These are some quotes from the Neopets Terms and conditions:7. Cheating Is Bad.
If you use cheat programs on any Neopets games, including non-Neopets software or programs, we will freeze all of your accounts.You agree not to design, disseminate or use any third party programs designed to change the game play on the site including, but without limitations, programs such as autobuyers, flash game cheats, autofreshers, and snipers. Any use, dissemination or design of such programs is a breach of these Terms you will be responsible for any resulting damages to Neopets.
TNT clearly states in their rules that you can't use any third party program/program that isn't made by TNT and that changes the gameplay. It's seems pretty obvious that "ImproveNeo" is a third party program and changes the gameplay, thus it's against the rules...So is it really their right to dictate to us what we can and can't use in our computers?
They do if that program changes the game play of Neopets.
But that's the thing. ImproveNeo, though a 3rd party script, doesn't change the gameplay. Users still can't grabbed that 1np codestones or that suddenly buyable Paint brush. And it isn't a cheat used on any Neopets games. You still have to be online, logged on neopets, and clicking the images or links Neopets have on their pages to play the site. It certainly is just like Adblock, which is 3rd party script, and can potentially change the game play especially if you use it in such a way that you block the non-profitable items from loading.
And if ImproveNeo was the reason why w3 was frozen, I ask, why? He wasn't the creator of the script and he hardly even uses it. And if using it (once twice or everyday) was the reason, how come he was the only one (well, that I know of) when a lot of people have been using the script? I'm not saying that they should've iced more users, I'm just asking why him? A strategic play on TNT's part? Get the leader and the rest will be scared for life? Really. TNT can stamped, scream about their rights. But users, paying customers at that, also have rights. Rights to question the system, rights to ask for answers. If you were in a restaurant and have already paid the bill but still eating your food, but the management decided to throw you out, won't you ask why? especially, if you paid for the service?
This whole situation is really frustrating. It's the weekend and you know you won't get any answers soon. TNT should really fix their customer relations. (I believe that free users and Premium users alike are customers, and should be treated as one. No, I'm not saying that customers should always be right but you know, I believe we deserved to be treated not like their minions they could iced when they want to)
Last edited by crazed on Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:18 pm
Hmm... well after reading though this thread, I have a couple of concerns I'd like to bring up. Two questions really. I'm sorry if these are dumb questions but I'm not knowledgeable on technical computer stuff.
My main concern, is this "bug" in FireFox that people are talking about that allows websites to see what extensions or programs I am running. Are the makers of FF aware of this and is it going to be fixed? Never mind what Neopets is doing with it. My faith in FF as a generally safe browsers has been a bit shaken, and I'd like to know where I can find some more information about this that a layperson like me could understand.
Now, just out of curiosity, what dose the improveneo script do exactly? I'd like to know. I've been using the improveneo website for a long time to track the rise and fall of item prices, I love it. But that's not cheating right?
I do not have greasemonkey installed, and I certainly don't plan to. The dangers in installing scripts when I'm not a programmer and cannot possibly understand the scripts and know exactly what they are doing are clear to me!
My main concern, is this "bug" in FireFox that people are talking about that allows websites to see what extensions or programs I am running. Are the makers of FF aware of this and is it going to be fixed? Never mind what Neopets is doing with it. My faith in FF as a generally safe browsers has been a bit shaken, and I'd like to know where I can find some more information about this that a layperson like me could understand.
Now, just out of curiosity, what dose the improveneo script do exactly? I'd like to know. I've been using the improveneo website for a long time to track the rise and fall of item prices, I love it. But that's not cheating right?
I do not have greasemonkey installed, and I certainly don't plan to. The dangers in installing scripts when I'm not a programmer and cannot possibly understand the scripts and know exactly what they are doing are clear to me!
Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:26 pm
crazed wrote:
But that's the thing. ImproveNeo, though a 3rd party script, doesn't change the gameplay.
In my opinion that program still changes the game play. I just visited the site to see what this "ImproveNeo" program is. Here are the features that program has:
Dynamic Item Price Retrieval
Dynamic Stock Graph Retrieval
Bargain Alerts on the Wiz
Customized Stock Recommendations
Enhanced security when browsing shops
No Ads
Best Price Seen So Far
And All Customizable
Those are all features that players normally don't have on neopets, thus it changes the gameplay, thus it's against the rules. At least that's my opinion.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:28 pm
I'm of two minds on this topic, and that's because the topic is somewhat shifting.
I certainly believe that those who were using ImproveNeo were playing with fire. They WERE using a third-party program, and whether or not Neo said yes or no to that specifically, third party programs are one of the few things in the ToS that ARE explicitly disallowed.
Now, onto other details, however. I continue to believe that Neo needs to be MUCH more careful about who they're freezing when they go about these little sprees. Not only w3, but I have a neice who was on her father's computer. Her father has never visited neopets in his life, but he's a fairly HIGH tech web designer who actually uses GreaseMonkey when working and updating from home. She did her dailies fine yesterday and logged on later from her mom's only to find herself frozen for "cheating programs."
She'd been frozen before (I don't remember what for... it felt kind of dumb at the time, and was sort of a grey area in which neo couldn't prove she was doing anything wrong and she couldn't prove she WASN'T doing anything wrong) and has treated this account with absolute safety... she's avoided the site altogether during any glitches, any CG reports, any dupes. She's never sent a score if her internet was being glitchy or during a storm, when it might disconnect and "look suspicious".
Now, I'm sending letters and emails on her behalf (she's 10 and has no idea what could be happening... she thinks she was "hacked") but who knows what good that will do?
TNT has had MAJOR issues lately with defining their boundaries... heck, remember the clickies answer in the editorial? "Well, we don't like it, but you shouldn't, but maybe... yes... no... um... yeah whatever." (Note: Yes, I am aware that this is not a direct quotation. But if you read through the thread, that's pretty much what was taken away from it.)
I'm a paying member of premium and it's bad when I tell my husband "It's only until they freeze my account." I've never used a program, I've never cheated in any way, shape, or form. I stopped using clickies when it became questionable... and yet I still think in terms of "when" rather than "if." And that's because of the almost LACK of black and white in the rules. We know you can't use third party programs, that's black and white... we know not to ask for/give passwords... I know it was suggested in an earlier post (and it may not have been in utter seriousnes... I don't know, I didn't type it) but it seems like somebody should keep a DISTINCT "do not" list on a pet page or something.
I certainly believe that those who were using ImproveNeo were playing with fire. They WERE using a third-party program, and whether or not Neo said yes or no to that specifically, third party programs are one of the few things in the ToS that ARE explicitly disallowed.
Now, onto other details, however. I continue to believe that Neo needs to be MUCH more careful about who they're freezing when they go about these little sprees. Not only w3, but I have a neice who was on her father's computer. Her father has never visited neopets in his life, but he's a fairly HIGH tech web designer who actually uses GreaseMonkey when working and updating from home. She did her dailies fine yesterday and logged on later from her mom's only to find herself frozen for "cheating programs."
She'd been frozen before (I don't remember what for... it felt kind of dumb at the time, and was sort of a grey area in which neo couldn't prove she was doing anything wrong and she couldn't prove she WASN'T doing anything wrong) and has treated this account with absolute safety... she's avoided the site altogether during any glitches, any CG reports, any dupes. She's never sent a score if her internet was being glitchy or during a storm, when it might disconnect and "look suspicious".
Now, I'm sending letters and emails on her behalf (she's 10 and has no idea what could be happening... she thinks she was "hacked") but who knows what good that will do?
TNT has had MAJOR issues lately with defining their boundaries... heck, remember the clickies answer in the editorial? "Well, we don't like it, but you shouldn't, but maybe... yes... no... um... yeah whatever." (Note: Yes, I am aware that this is not a direct quotation. But if you read through the thread, that's pretty much what was taken away from it.)
I'm a paying member of premium and it's bad when I tell my husband "It's only until they freeze my account." I've never used a program, I've never cheated in any way, shape, or form. I stopped using clickies when it became questionable... and yet I still think in terms of "when" rather than "if." And that's because of the almost LACK of black and white in the rules. We know you can't use third party programs, that's black and white... we know not to ask for/give passwords... I know it was suggested in an earlier post (and it may not have been in utter seriousnes... I don't know, I didn't type it) but it seems like somebody should keep a DISTINCT "do not" list on a pet page or something.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:33 pm
Meer wrote:Hmm... well after reading though this thread, I have a couple of concerns I'd like to bring up. Two questions really. I'm sorry if these are dumb questions but I'm not knowledgeable on technical computer stuff.
My main concern, is this "bug" in FireFox that people are talking about that allows websites to see what extensions or programs I am running. Are the makers of FF aware of this and is it going to be fixed? Never mind what Neopets is doing with it. My faith in FF as a generally safe browsers has been a bit shaken, and I'd like to know where I can find some more information about this that a layperson like me could understand.
Now, just out of curiosity, what dose the improveneo script do exactly? I'd like to know. I've been using the improveneo website for a long time to track the rise and fall of item prices, I love it. But that's not cheating right?
I do not have greasemonkey installed, and I certainly don't plan to. The dangers in installing scripts when I'm not a programmer and cannot possibly understand the scripts and know exactly what they are doing are clear to me!
First, yes FF are aware of that. I believe they are coming up with an update for that. For now, it isn't a security risk as much as a privacy issue. I believe it was discussed a few pages before... or I may be reading a different forum.
2nd, well, it doesn't do much in terms of gaining "unfair advantage". It basically just retrieves prices and graphs. screenshots: 001
002
I believe it's what makes it possible for the graphs at Improveneo/ipricing. How can tracking prices be cheating? I believe, it is when you deliberately buy out a certain item to increase its price is cheating.
but it seems like somebody should keep a DISTINCT "do not" list on a pet page or something.
They should really. Their TOS and editorials conflict with each other at one point or another.
As for Improveneo, let's all agree to disagree. I for one want it back. If TNT doesn't want 3rd party scripts, then they should implement Improveneo as part of their system. It actually ALERTS YOU when there's a CG in the shop you're going to. Now, without it, I feel so unsecured whenever I go to someone else's shop.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:46 pm
crazed wrote:Meer wrote:Hmm... well after reading though this thread, I have a couple of concerns I'd like to bring up. Two questions really. I'm sorry if these are dumb questions but I'm not knowledgeable on technical computer stuff.
My main concern, is this "bug" in FireFox that people are talking about that allows websites to see what extensions or programs I am running. Are the makers of FF aware of this and is it going to be fixed? Never mind what Neopets is doing with it. My faith in FF as a generally safe browsers has been a bit shaken, and I'd like to know where I can find some more information about this that a layperson like me could understand.
Now, just out of curiosity, what dose the improveneo script do exactly? I'd like to know. I've been using the improveneo website for a long time to track the rise and fall of item prices, I love it. But that's not cheating right?
I do not have greasemonkey installed, and I certainly don't plan to. The dangers in installing scripts when I'm not a programmer and cannot possibly understand the scripts and know exactly what they are doing are clear to me!
First, yes FF are aware of that. I believe they are coming up with an update for that. For now, it isn't a security risk as much as a privacy issue. I believe it was discussed a few pages before... or I may be reading a different forum.
2nd, well, it doesn't do much in terms of gaining "unfair advantage". It basically just retrieves prices and graphs. screenshots: 001
002
I believe it's what makes it possible for the graphs at Improveneo/ipricing. How can tracking prices be cheating? I believe, it is when you deliberately buy out a certain item to increase its price is cheating. [/url]
I'd like to comment on that first screenie. If I see it right you can see the price an item sells for in a shop while restocking, right? Isn't that an unfair advantage? If I restock and I don't know if an item is worth a profit I have to open a new window and search on the shopwiz. If I'd have a feature that will show the price of a certain item on the page it restocks I could save a few seconds and I'd have an advantage over people that don't have that feature...
Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:57 pm
Neopets, like life, is not fair and never will be. They have total authority over our accounts--they're a company, not a democratic government. It's their site and they only let us play because it's profitable. If they don't like the shape of our noses, they can freeze our accounts and there's not really anything we can do about it. The T&C are just a courtesy to us. If they don't want to abide by their rules, we can't stop them; if they sometimes freeze people for reasons unclear to us, or reasons we never figure out, they can do that. The only options you have are to play the site and risk getting frozen or to not play the site. Like I said, it's not fair, but don't expect it to change.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:09 pm
crazed wrote:Meer wrote:Hmm... well after reading though this thread, I have a couple of concerns I'd like to bring up. Two questions really. I'm sorry if these are dumb questions but I'm not knowledgeable on technical computer stuff.
My main concern, is this "bug" in FireFox that people are talking about that allows websites to see what extensions or programs I am running. Are the makers of FF aware of this and is it going to be fixed? Never mind what Neopets is doing with it. My faith in FF as a generally safe browsers has been a bit shaken, and I'd like to know where I can find some more information about this that a layperson like me could understand.
Now, just out of curiosity, what dose the improveneo script do exactly? I'd like to know. I've been using the improveneo website for a long time to track the rise and fall of item prices, I love it. But that's not cheating right?
I do not have greasemonkey installed, and I certainly don't plan to. The dangers in installing scripts when I'm not a programmer and cannot possibly understand the scripts and know exactly what they are doing are clear to me!
First, yes FF are aware of that. I believe they are coming up with an update for that. For now, it isn't a security risk as much as a privacy issue. I believe it was discussed a few pages before... or I may be reading a different forum.
Ah okay, thanks for that info! Yeah I know it's not a big security issue, but even little privacy issues are a concern to me. I get a bit paranoid and like to keep as much privacy as I can on the internet. I'm glad to know they're working on it
2nd, well, it doesn't do much in terms of gaining "unfair advantage". It basically just retrieves prices and graphs. screenshots: 001
002
I believe it's what makes it possible for the graphs at Improveneo/ipricing. How can tracking prices be cheating? I believe, it is when you deliberately buy out a certain item to increase its price is cheating.
Oh. Wow that looks really cool. I'm almost glad I didn't know about it before all this hoopla, because I would have been very tempted to use it! But I can definitely see how that could be considered cheating.
but it seems like somebody should keep a DISTINCT "do not" list on a pet page or something.
They should really. Their TOS and editorials conflict with each other at one point or another.
Yes! TNT really should be more clear on their rules. I believe it's their responsibility to clearly state what the rules are that we are agreeing to. Not just a courtesy that ya know, they really should let us know, just to be nice to us.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:19 pm
Yes, I think there are a lot of grey areas in Neopets rules too. However, I think this case is pretty clear. I have to admit though, I find it rather strange that TNT never did anything about the program, even when someone mailed them to ask if the program was allowed. And then suddenly freeze people without a warning. I think the situation could have been handled better. The could have emailed the maker of the program, posted on the neoboard or written something in the news/editoiral before freezing people.
As I can see on this board, a lot of people didn't think they were cheating so it would have been nice from TNT if they had given players some sort of warning first...
edit: I wrote a question to the editorial about it.
As I can see on this board, a lot of people didn't think they were cheating so it would have been nice from TNT if they had given players some sort of warning first...
edit: I wrote a question to the editorial about it.
Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:05 pm
Moongewl wrote:Neopets, like life, is not fair and never will be. They have total authority over our accounts--they're a company, not a democratic government. It's their site and they only let us play because it's profitable. If they don't like the shape of our noses, they can freeze our accounts and there's not really anything we can do about it. The T&C are just a courtesy to us. If they don't want to abide by their rules, we can't stop them; if they sometimes freeze people for reasons unclear to us, or reasons we never figure out, they can do that. The only options you have are to play the site and risk getting frozen or to not play the site. Like I said, it's not fair, but don't expect it to change.
See, this kind of thinking isn't healthy. We aren't their little followers they could order around. We are their customers. Now, saying we are their customers isn't entitlement because we are, in fact, their customers. The T&C isn't a courtesy to us as much as it is an extreme benefit to them especially in terms of protecting their rights. But as I've said, we also have rights as customers. However, since this is the Internet, our rights as consumers isn't bidding especially since it is hard to enforce it. Still, we can complain if we deemed their services isn't up to par or inquire about something we think is unclear. After all, why can't we? Is it really any different from expecting up to par services at a hotel or a restaurant?
One thing is for sure about Neopets is that it's a business, that cares so much about profits. The thing is, who drives the profits? We do. Icing each and everyone of us wouldn't be too good for advertisers wouldn't it? Giant companies in the "real world" didn't become giants that they are today by ignoring their customers. And there are those who fade into oblivion because they didn't see the trends or customers left. And if a new a better Neopets-like online gaming appear with a much better service with a bigger company to back it up, who knows how many current Neopets users would transfer? You'll never know. If companies in the real world can over come the challenges of government documents, physical structures and etc to compete with and beat an existing successful company, how much more in the virtual realm with less amount of paper work?
And since life is unfair like Neopets: Well if what Neopets is doing, such as unfairly icing their users with no warnings or explanation, really happened or echoed in real life, the company would probably have been sued to no end till they are bankrupt.
Oh, and I expect things to change. They may be for the better or worse. But as you can see, Neopets have constantly been changing. Their once friendly environment is reeking of fear and mistrust. And seeing that they are changing, I see no reason why I can't expect them to change.